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embrace yourself because you're about to

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dive into another free first hour

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episode of the higher side chats and we

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just want to let you know that whether

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you're looking for a companion through

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your paranoid insomnia entertaining

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yourself through one of life's mundane

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activities we're trying to ward off the

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internal screams of all those sad

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smothered Souls around the office THC is

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here and you should know that every

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episode of the higher side chats has an

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entire second hour four plus members

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sign up at the higher side chats plus

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calm and you get years of plus show

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special invite to greg carl woods

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bonus episodes for videos and 10% off

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up in the higher side store it's eight

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dollars a month that you won't miss so

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become a plus member and treat yourself

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in these troubled times always

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action-packed and commercial free which

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means you'll unfortunately never hear my

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in the 1930s President Franklin Delano

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Roosevelt addressed the nation through a

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series of radio broadcast known as the

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fireside chats his aim was to reassure

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the common man that our society would

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recover from its troubled times

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well we're far from 1930 and I deal with

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a different kind of buyer a brush

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conversation I'm Carl wood back in the

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saddle and ready to ride dear people

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from sunny San Diego I'm Greg Carl wood

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and we have spent a lot of time talking

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about how we've been screwed by the

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system how our leaders have led us

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astray and just how backwards our

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current lifestyles really are we spend

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most of our time at jobs we can't stand

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just to get enough green paper to get us

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through another 30 days we spend most of

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it on cheap pre-made food because we

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lost the knowledge to cook for ourselves

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and some of us even pay for gym

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memberships to simulate the use of our

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body we used to just call living we grow

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in mow useless patches of grass instead

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of anything we could use or eat and we

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perpetuate the cycle of suckling at the

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teat of a tyrannical system out of

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ignorance convenience and complacency

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yes the puppet masters the Western world

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dangled that quarter pounder carrot in

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front of us and we wandered right into

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the trap of microwavable TV dinners pill

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popping and the hypnotic nightly news

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but it does take two to tango maybe we

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didn't ask for the rockefeller

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rothschild debt based system a rule but

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we definitely embraced it all with open

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arms and I think people are finally

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realizing how fascinating beneficial and

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downright magical our natural systems

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really are and the prospect of a pivot

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back to a simpler life is sounding

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better all the time

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so maybe it isn't as sexy as secret

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space programs in CIA mind control but

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permaculture a reintroduction to nature

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and the empowerment gained from shucking

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off the slave system are useful tools

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for the long game and I don't think they

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should be overlooked and I'm sure these

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feelings are shared by today's guest

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Peter Allen who is an ecologist turned

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farmer focused on restoring functional

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and productive Savannah ecosystems he

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owns and manages Mastodon Valley farm in

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southwest Wisconsin where he runs

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successful all-natural meat subscription

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business he also runs Savannah Gardens

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LLC an education and consulting company

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focused on permaculture restoration

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agriculture holistic planning and

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ecological design so let's stop bitching

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and start living the Land Management

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Magi oak savannah sage permaculture pimp

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and master of his Mastodon valley farm

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domain Peter welcome to the higher side

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hey thanks Greg great intro as always

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huh I try but man I am really psyched to

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be doing this thanks for being here I

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think it's gonna be a lot of fun for

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people who probably don't know you are a

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plus member who reached out after

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hearing me mention the desire to focus

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on a few shows that could be about

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permaculture the things that are really

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your expertise and here we are I got to

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say that I find this exciting because in

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the same way we learn about cars that

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used to run on alcohol Flying Saucer

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technology free energy devices light

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therapy holistic medicine natural cancer

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cures all these things I'd consider

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really powerful tools that were once

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there in the past we don't have many

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more they've probably been suppressed

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I think engineered abundance and

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biodynamic agriculture

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I think they qualify as things to put

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under the umbrella of suppressed

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knowledge and lost technology when you

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really think about it do you think

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that's fair to say yeah I mean nature

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itself is magic I mean the process of

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photosynthesis is a magical phenomenon

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and so all of our technology and modern

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times is very mechanical and sort of

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based on chemistry and manipulation of

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the physical domain

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with genetic engineering we're starting

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to get into the biological domain but

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most of biology has not been penetrated

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by our Natural Sciences and so we've got

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a lot of work to do to figure out how to

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reintegrate ourselves within the natural

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world but fortunately there's a lot of

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techniques that have already been

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developed and we just have to plug in

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and get to work mm-hmm I agree so to use

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your own journey and developing interest

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in permaculture and holistic thinking as

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a sort of template I'm curious to know

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about some of the early things that you

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learned about engaging with the natural

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world that maybe surprised you and lit

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that fire to learn more yeah well it

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really started for me when I was in

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college I ended up getting a degree in

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environmental science but I didn't start

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out that way I started out in the

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business school didn't like that floated

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around for a bit and I ended up having

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to take a biology credit and so I took a

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class called plant and plant communities

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and all it was was a week-long trip to

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the Smoky Mountain Park and basically

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every day we got up and spent the whole

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day in a different kind of plant

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community learning the plants and we

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would learn 20 30 40 species a day so I

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learned a hundred plants plus in a short

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period of time and I'd spend a lot of

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time outside growing up I grew up

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hunting and fishing with grandparents

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and stuff like that and always enjoyed

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being outside and was into backpacking

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and stuff like that but to me the

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outside was just like green nature when

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I would go for a hike it was beautiful

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but it was just green and beautiful and

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then when I learned the plants it's like

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a whole new world opened up and so it

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really started me on a journey of now

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when I went out outside went hiking

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taking my dog for a walk I would try to

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recognize the plants and try to identify

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them and then if I didn't see one it was

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like a challenge to figure out what it

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was and that just sort of led me on this

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lifelong pursuit of basically

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reintegrating back into nature first

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starting by figuring out what's there to

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begin with mmm yes I was gonna bring up

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that very class it made me think about

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that book and document

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the secret life of plants and that I

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think it's it's mainly about how maybe

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they do have this sort of conscious

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intelligence and we seem to generally

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overlook it maybe they do have some

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language and communication that isn't in

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English obviously but that doesn't mean

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it's not intelligent I mean is that kind

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of your impression of the plant world

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now yeah I mean that's a very

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complicated subject but there's more and

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more research showing how plants

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communicate both within members of the

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same species but also between species

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and then especially using fungus as a

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sort of communication medium mmm there's

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a lot of evidence showing that basically

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what's going on under the earth is that

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there are symbiotic fungus that lives

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literally like inside the plant roots

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and then they connect multiple species

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together and so that can serve both as

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communication channels but also as

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highways to move energy and materials

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around so when one plant needs extra

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energy because it's flowering the fungus

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can pull energy from another species

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that's not flowering right now and

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doesn't need it basically send it along

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this superhighway shoot it up to the

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plants that need it and so you know in

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an ecosystem plants are there's

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different species that flower throughout

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the year so every species has its own

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like one or two week window where it's

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at peak flowering and the fungus

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underground seems to migrate that energy

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and material between the plants when it

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needs it the extent that the energy and

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material routes also serve as a

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communication in a form of consciousness

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is obviously more speculative but it

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certainly wouldn't surprise me mm-hmm

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yes fungus and mushrooms are really a

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rabbit hole on their own right I've

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heard little anecdotes about the fact

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that they seem to be able to survive in

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the vacuum of space and maybe they are

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some weird alien intelligence that is

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kind of contributed to the terraforming

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of the planet and if I mean you want to

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talk about speculation there we are but

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you know for me with this whole

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section of material when I read some of

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the descriptions of what North America

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looked like before the Europeans arrived

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that's kind of what blew me away and set

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me off

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I mean descriptions that mention things

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like so many fish in the river that

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horses are crossing almost without

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touching bottom and just the change in

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understanding from thinking Native

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Americans just lived off the land to

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seeing how they actually worked with

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nature to amplify the resources they had

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I mean it starts to sound like a

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paradise and I've heard you refer to

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this as the wilderness myth tell us a

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bit about that and what the land looked

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like before the white man came if you

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could yeah so the wilderness myth is

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something that sort of subconsciously

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programmed into all of us in North

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America we think that this continent was

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a natural wilderness when the first

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settlers arrived and yeah there were

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humans hunting and gathering and eating

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berries and fruit and stuff and maybe

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hunting deer here and there but they

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were living with in a wilderness kind of

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more passively and that notion permeates

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how we think about nature I mean we

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assume that nature sort of the

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definition of nature means a place sort

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of without people so if you say

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something is all natural it means it

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hasn't been corrupted by people and

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there's this assumption that humans

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equaled somehow not natural and a

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corruption of nature when you look at

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the historical landscape and all of the

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evidence that we can pull out of data in

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terms of pollen records and soil cores

276
00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:02,020
and stuff like that there is massive

277
00:11:08,490 --> 00:11:04,960
evidence that the ecosystems across the

278
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:08,500
continent are not organized the way they

279
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:11,650
would have been if there were no humans

280
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:14,320
here mm-hmm if there had been no humans

281
00:11:18,930 --> 00:11:16,480
present in North America when the first

282
00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:18,940
Europeans came it would have been a much

283
00:11:23,220 --> 00:11:20,760
different continent it would have been

284
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:23,230
densely forested at least in the eastern

285
00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:25,890
half and there would have been much less

286
00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:29,130
diversity of both plants but also

287
00:11:36,050 --> 00:11:32,550
herbivores specifically bison

288
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:36,060
and elk and deer which were in eastern

289
00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:38,610
North America especially at huge massive

290
00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:41,580
numbers even to the point where North

291
00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:44,850
America produced more meat in terms of

292
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:49,350
pounds of say meat from a bison or from

293
00:11:55,250 --> 00:11:52,050
a deer from a elk than we produce today

294
00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:55,260
in our industrial agricultural systems

295
00:11:59,660 --> 00:11:58,290
so you know you talked about the Native

296
00:12:01,190 --> 00:11:59,670
Americans and how you could you know

297
00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:01,200
kind of walk across the water on fish

298
00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:02,700
and some of that we got to be a little

299
00:12:08,110 --> 00:12:05,310
bit careful there because poetic license

300
00:12:11,150 --> 00:12:08,120
well there was an abundance of

301
00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:11,160
biological diversity here for sure but

302
00:12:18,199 --> 00:12:14,790
there was also a massive genocide of the

303
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,209
indigenous peoples preceding the first

304
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:20,160
settlers coming in and riding accounts

305
00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:23,250
of it and so basically if Native

306
00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:24,990
Americans were managing the landscape

307
00:12:30,290 --> 00:12:28,440
and eating a lot of animals and then all

308
00:12:31,970 --> 00:12:30,300
those people died then all those animals

309
00:12:34,340 --> 00:12:31,980
are gonna explode in population numbers

310
00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:34,350
so the fish in the sea is the Bison out

311
00:12:40,519 --> 00:12:37,680
west and the SE passenger pigeons which

312
00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:40,529
were a hunted species may have been in

313
00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:42,390
such exorbitant numbers in the early

314
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:45,870
1800s not just because they were always

315
00:12:51,199 --> 00:12:48,450
like that but because we slaughtered all

316
00:12:53,810 --> 00:12:51,209
of the hunters mmm yeah that makes a lot

317
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:53,820
of sense it's like a factory that you

318
00:12:58,850 --> 00:12:55,470
flip the switch on and then walked away

319
00:13:01,280 --> 00:12:58,860
from its producing but you're not

320
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:01,290
consuming what it produces that's

321
00:13:05,030 --> 00:13:03,690
exactly right and so we got to be a

322
00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:05,040
little bit careful with the early

323
00:13:09,199 --> 00:13:07,230
settler accounts of things because it's

324
00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:09,209
a little inflated over what it would

325
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:10,950
have been before but even just looking

326
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:13,170
at the landscape itself the fact that it

327
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:16,170
wasn't closed-canopy forest from sea to

328
00:13:22,490 --> 00:13:19,920
shining sea means that there were active

329
00:13:26,329 --> 00:13:22,500
people here shaping the landscape for

330
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:26,339
their own benefit essentially Native

331
00:13:32,150 --> 00:13:29,370
Americans were practicing advanced forms

332
00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:32,160
of Agriculture creating ecosystems that

333
00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:35,370
produced an immense amount of food it's

334
00:13:38,689 --> 00:13:36,690
hard to say whether they're comparable

335
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:38,699
with what we produce in terms of food

336
00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:41,810
today but just looking at the amount of

337
00:13:46,190 --> 00:13:44,100
herbivores present on the continent

338
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:46,200
tells you that because

339
00:13:50,570 --> 00:13:47,850
more meat produced back then than there

340
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:50,580
is now clearly there was a lot of food

341
00:13:55,930 --> 00:13:54,360
being grown their most common tool for

342
00:13:59,750 --> 00:13:55,940
land management was fire

343
00:14:02,540 --> 00:13:59,760
so most areas were burned most of the

344
00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:02,550
time like most years most areas would

345
00:14:06,620 --> 00:14:04,710
get a fire and these fires weren't like

346
00:14:10,850 --> 00:14:06,630
forest fires there were small ground

347
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:10,860
fire so anytime a grassland does not get

348
00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:13,290
fully grazed by the end of the year it's

349
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:16,470
got a lot of dead grass and material

350
00:14:21,950 --> 00:14:19,650
biomass hanging out and if you can burn

351
00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:21,960
that off you massively increase the

352
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:25,320
amount of production that that piece of

353
00:14:33,380 --> 00:14:30,510
land can produce and so by burning they

354
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:33,390
were able to essentially move animals

355
00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:35,490
around because following a burn the

356
00:14:41,690 --> 00:14:38,760
grass that grows is extremely high in

357
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:41,700
protein and sugar it's like candy for a

358
00:14:47,270 --> 00:14:45,510
cow or for a buffalo so by burning

359
00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:47,280
patches of ground they could essentially

360
00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:51,420
move herds of Buffalo around a kind of

361
00:14:56,150 --> 00:14:53,820
rotational grazing that farmers do today

362
00:14:59,420 --> 00:14:56,160
was practice back then but using fire

363
00:15:01,040 --> 00:14:59,430
instead of fences yeah I love that

364
00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:01,050
that was something I picked up from

365
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:03,660
those chapters you sent me of your soon

366
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:05,850
to be finished book and in there you

367
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,250
mentioned that there were hundreds of

368
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:10,560
reasons that they used fire and we have

369
00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:13,410
talked about that biochar process in the

370
00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:15,480
past a little bit but this idea of

371
00:15:22,670 --> 00:15:19,830
moving mammals around was really like an

372
00:15:26,330 --> 00:15:22,680
eye-opener to me as well as just how

373
00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:26,340
important oak trees were and acorns and

374
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:29,790
that they would burn under the oak trees

375
00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:32,730
prior to acorn harvesting because it

376
00:15:36,890 --> 00:15:34,980
clears the ground to make the harvest

377
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:36,900
easier you can see them and it also

378
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:40,650
kills insects and pests that would have

379
00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:44,310
otherwise compromised some of that crop

380
00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:47,600
and it's just like man we really have a

381
00:15:54,110 --> 00:15:51,270
pretty racist look at these people as

382
00:15:56,150 --> 00:15:54,120
maybe savages or just kind of dealing

383
00:15:58,260 --> 00:15:56,160
with what they had but I mean these are

384
00:16:00,450 --> 00:15:58,270
human beings too and they have

385
00:16:03,210 --> 00:16:00,460
as much intelligence as anyone and this

386
00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:03,220
is just how it manifested in their

387
00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:05,470
environment and clearly at least to me

388
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:08,260
it's better than what we do when you can

389
00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:09,850
see the results of where our system has

390
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:12,790
taken us absolutely one of the things

391
00:16:17,850 --> 00:16:14,560
that a lot people don't realize is to

392
00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:17,860
the extent which humans evolved with the

393
00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:18,750
oak tree

394
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:22,780
acorns were a staple crop for indigenous

395
00:16:27,330 --> 00:16:25,450
North Americans but they were a staple

396
00:16:30,090 --> 00:16:27,340
crop for our ancestors too you just got

397
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:30,100
to look back prior to the Neolithic the

398
00:16:35,850 --> 00:16:33,040
Agricultural Revolution so in Northern

399
00:16:37,260 --> 00:16:35,860
Europe the old oak Grove's I mean it's

400
00:16:39,660 --> 00:16:37,270
not even just Northern Europe is pretty

401
00:16:42,930 --> 00:16:39,670
much all of Europe had chestnut and oak

402
00:16:45,390 --> 00:16:42,940
Grove's or savannas across the continent

403
00:16:49,350 --> 00:16:45,400
that our ancestors closer to you know

404
00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:49,360
8,000 years ago in the same way that was

405
00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:52,540
their staple crop and so oak trees are

406
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:53,650
amazing because they've got so many

407
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:56,110
different varieties that grow in so many

408
00:16:59,700 --> 00:16:58,240
different conditions there's the white

409
00:17:02,040 --> 00:16:59,710
oaks that grow in eastern North America

410
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:02,050
that grow all the way from Manitoba down

411
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:04,959
to Mexico and then you know where you're

412
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:06,730
at in Southern California and all the

413
00:17:12,829 --> 00:17:09,520
way up the west coast there's different

414
00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:12,839
varieties of acorns that produce very

415
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:16,390
edible and very high-quality nuts pretty

416
00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:19,330
prolific aliy and so when you have a

417
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:21,370
savannah type landscape with widely

418
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:23,890
spaced trees these trees can produce an

419
00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:27,730
enormous amount of food and it has been

420
00:17:35,190 --> 00:17:30,660
a staple crop that humans have relied on

421
00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:35,200
for survival for tens of thousands of

422
00:17:39,810 --> 00:17:36,120
years

423
00:17:41,610 --> 00:17:39,820
hmm well said and I wanted to talk a

424
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,620
little more about savannas versus

425
00:17:45,870 --> 00:17:43,840
forests because that is the evidence

426
00:17:47,550 --> 00:17:45,880
that we know the landscape was

427
00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:47,560
engineered because if you leave it alone

428
00:17:53,460 --> 00:17:51,370
we get forests and forest as you said

429
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:53,470
we're not the dominant ecosystem across

430
00:17:59,220 --> 00:17:56,890
the Midwest savannas were and I think

431
00:18:01,170 --> 00:17:59,230
we're starting at such a base level I

432
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:01,180
don't know if people have a mental

433
00:18:05,130 --> 00:18:03,370
construct for what a savanna is or how

434
00:18:06,570 --> 00:18:05,140
it's different from a forest but can you

435
00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:06,580
break down some of those important

436
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:09,640
differences yeah definitely so you know

437
00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:11,050
there's a spectrum so we can start with

438
00:18:13,860 --> 00:18:11,830
a grass

439
00:18:15,659 --> 00:18:13,870
land which is like some pasture or

440
00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:15,669
prairie that it's just open no trees and

441
00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:18,190
full of grasses and then we all know

442
00:18:22,830 --> 00:18:19,720
what a forest is where there's a closed

443
00:18:24,810 --> 00:18:22,840
canopy of trees if you go into a forest

444
00:18:26,549 --> 00:18:24,820
it's pretty dark not a lot of sunlight

445
00:18:28,950 --> 00:18:26,559
actually gets down to the ground and

446
00:18:32,610 --> 00:18:28,960
then a savanna is a place that is a

447
00:18:35,130 --> 00:18:32,620
grassland so it's a continuous cover of

448
00:18:38,639 --> 00:18:35,140
perennial grasses on the ground but then

449
00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:38,649
have scattered trees and so if you were

450
00:18:42,509 --> 00:18:40,809
to take a piece of land and let it go

451
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:42,519
and don't do anything with it say it was

452
00:18:46,409 --> 00:18:44,500
plowed as a crop field and then you just

453
00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:46,419
abandon it if you're in the eastern

454
00:18:51,330 --> 00:18:47,769
United States where we get plenty of

455
00:18:53,580 --> 00:18:51,340
rain first grasses are gonna grow and

456
00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:53,590
weeds thistles and stuff like that will

457
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:55,570
come in and go and then the grasses will

458
00:18:59,490 --> 00:18:56,970
get established and pretty quickly

459
00:19:03,169 --> 00:18:59,500
you're gonna get trees starting to grow

460
00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:03,179
fast growing shrubs and trees and

461
00:19:11,009 --> 00:19:06,460
generally within 20 or 30 years you've

462
00:19:13,019 --> 00:19:11,019
got trees growing pretty quickly that by

463
00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:13,029
year 30 you can get to the point where

464
00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:15,220
you have kind of a closed canopy where

465
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,289
the ground starts to get shaded out and

466
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:18,880
then once the ground gets shaded out you

467
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:21,010
lose grass grass needs sunlight and so

468
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:23,049
once there's shade over grass it

469
00:19:29,460 --> 00:19:26,559
basically goes away and grass is what

470
00:19:31,470 --> 00:19:29,470
holds on to the soil so when it rains if

471
00:19:33,450 --> 00:19:31,480
there's grasses those grass roots hold

472
00:19:35,610 --> 00:19:33,460
onto the soil and if there's not grass

473
00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:35,620
roots your soil washes away so in crop

474
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:37,720
fields every time it rains soil washes

475
00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:40,960
away in forests you don't lose as much

476
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:43,630
because you have tree roots that hold

477
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:45,130
onto the soil but they don't hold on as

478
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:48,490
well as grass roots and so the beauty

479
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:50,730
about savannas you never have enough

480
00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:53,110
shade to shade out the grasses you

481
00:19:57,810 --> 00:19:56,350
always have grasses but you also have

482
00:20:00,480 --> 00:19:57,820
the trees and all the benefits that they

483
00:20:02,730 --> 00:20:00,490
provide trees are like the sweat pores

484
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:02,740
of our planet you know they transpire

485
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:04,870
them you know an oak tree will pull up

486
00:20:09,690 --> 00:20:07,210
hundreds of gallons of water a day out

487
00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:09,700
of the ground and transpire it into the

488
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:11,380
atmosphere just like our sweat glands

489
00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:12,970
pull moisture out and then that

490
00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:14,620
evaporates on the surface trees do the

491
00:20:19,139 --> 00:20:17,590
same thing but at a huge scale and then

492
00:20:20,370 --> 00:20:19,149
you know obviously they produce food and

493
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:20,380
do a lot of other good things to

494
00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:23,679
photosynthesize but having a savanna

495
00:20:27,570 --> 00:20:25,720
means that you have

496
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:27,580
a continuous layer of grasses on the

497
00:20:32,129 --> 00:20:30,250
ground with scattered trees that aren't

498
00:20:34,919 --> 00:20:32,139
close enough together to then shade out

499
00:20:37,619 --> 00:20:34,929
the grasses and in the eastern United

500
00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:37,629
States we get enough rain that if you

501
00:20:40,919 --> 00:20:38,769
let a piece of land go it turns into

502
00:20:42,299 --> 00:20:40,929
forest really really quick you never get

503
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:42,309
a savanna they just don't happen

504
00:20:49,289 --> 00:20:45,090
naturally they're very unnatural

505
00:20:51,149 --> 00:20:49,299
ecosystems when you define natural as

506
00:20:52,169 --> 00:20:51,159
being in absence of humans so if you

507
00:20:54,509 --> 00:20:52,179
take humans out of the equation you

508
00:20:56,399 --> 00:20:54,519
don't get savannas you know we were in

509
00:20:59,519 --> 00:20:56,409
the ice stages 12,000 years ago

510
00:21:01,740 --> 00:20:59,529
and it seems to be about the same time

511
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:01,750
that the ice ages ended is when Native

512
00:21:06,629 --> 00:21:04,570
Americans sort of in earnest conquered

513
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:06,639
North America and South American Central

514
00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:10,330
America and following the Ice Ages once

515
00:21:14,879 --> 00:21:11,740
the ice melted we basically turned into

516
00:21:17,159 --> 00:21:14,889
a boreal forest and then as it warmed up

517
00:21:19,169 --> 00:21:17,169
Native Americans came in and pretty

518
00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:19,179
quickly like within a few thousand years

519
00:21:24,269 --> 00:21:21,100
it went from forest to an open oak

520
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,279
savanna you start seeing oak pollen and

521
00:21:29,549 --> 00:21:27,360
grass pollen in the pollen signatures

522
00:21:31,019 --> 00:21:29,559
about eight thousand six thousand years

523
00:21:34,710 --> 00:21:31,029
ago which is pretty remarkable because

524
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:34,720
neither grasses nor oak trees can grow

525
00:21:40,110 --> 00:21:37,330
in shady conditions oak trees cannot

526
00:21:41,999 --> 00:21:40,120
grow cannot generate an acorn will not

527
00:21:44,159 --> 00:21:42,009
sprout and turn into an oak tree if it's

528
00:21:46,169 --> 00:21:44,169
shaded at all so once a forest turns

529
00:21:48,389 --> 00:21:46,179
shade you basically say goodbye to the

530
00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:48,399
Oaks so the fact that we had oak trees

531
00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:51,070
so prevalent in our ecosystems for so

532
00:21:56,669 --> 00:21:54,190
long is a dead ringer giveaway that

533
00:21:58,499 --> 00:21:56,679
something was going on to set back the

534
00:22:04,230 --> 00:21:58,509
forest and it was clearly Native

535
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:04,240
Americans with fire yes and with this

536
00:22:08,940 --> 00:22:06,340
wilderness myth something I hadn't

537
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:08,950
thought much about is how this affects

538
00:22:13,710 --> 00:22:11,769
much more than our ideas of pre colonial

539
00:22:16,110 --> 00:22:13,720
America it's still affecting us today

540
00:22:17,369 --> 00:22:16,120
even people whose hearts and minds are

541
00:22:20,249 --> 00:22:17,379
in the right places like these

542
00:22:22,350 --> 00:22:20,259
ecological communities and conservation

543
00:22:24,619 --> 00:22:22,360
movements they're all backwards too

544
00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:24,629
because they still have this

545
00:22:29,879 --> 00:22:27,820
presupposition that we need to just

546
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:29,889
leave nature alone and let it get back

547
00:22:35,369 --> 00:22:32,559
to how it was and it's not going to be

548
00:22:38,340 --> 00:22:35,379
what you want because you're already

549
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:38,350
starting off of a false premise and it's

550
00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:39,530
just interesting to see

551
00:22:44,890 --> 00:22:43,400
how even now that's still affecting even

552
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:44,900
people who are trying to do the right

553
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:47,570
thing oh absolutely

554
00:22:51,790 --> 00:22:50,210
it's permeated especially in the

555
00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:51,800
environmental and ecological communities

556
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:54,830
I mean I spent a decade at University of

557
00:22:59,320 --> 00:22:57,440
Wisconsin doing ecology and restoration

558
00:23:03,150 --> 00:22:59,330
ecology where you know we would try to

559
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:03,160
go restore an ecosystem but they define

560
00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:05,360
restoration as returning it to its

561
00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:09,500
natural state like it was before we got

562
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:13,640
here which is so ironic it's just absurd

563
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:16,070
when you really look at it but nobody

564
00:23:20,530 --> 00:23:18,170
really sees the problem they're the

565
00:23:22,060 --> 00:23:20,540
contradiction and that if you want to

566
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:22,070
restore the landscape to the way it was

567
00:23:25,210 --> 00:23:23,840
before Europeans got here that's fine

568
00:23:27,910 --> 00:23:25,220
but we've got to realize that that

569
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,920
wasn't natural at least how we define

570
00:23:32,110 --> 00:23:30,080
natural so like the wilderness myth has

571
00:23:36,910 --> 00:23:32,120
made its way into our definition of what

572
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:36,920
natural means realizing that the planet

573
00:23:41,890 --> 00:23:39,410
hasn't been the same since humans of all

574
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:41,900
desert species especially since we got

575
00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:44,240
the use of fire tens of thousands of

576
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:46,790
years ago the planets not the same so if

577
00:23:52,330 --> 00:23:49,610
we define natural as meaning without

578
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:52,340
humans then we've got to go way back and

579
00:23:55,270 --> 00:23:54,050
we don't have any idea of what that

580
00:23:57,850 --> 00:23:55,280
might look like anyways and what's the

581
00:24:00,010 --> 00:23:57,860
point we know that we had really diverse

582
00:24:02,260 --> 00:24:00,020
ecosystems here before Europeans arrived

583
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:02,270
that produce a whole lot of food and so

584
00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:03,380
when I was at the University doing

585
00:24:07,900 --> 00:24:05,390
restoration work we would restore a

586
00:24:09,460 --> 00:24:07,910
prairie and then they would want to burn

587
00:24:12,340 --> 00:24:09,470
it all the time but even when you burn

588
00:24:14,110 --> 00:24:12,350
prairies all the time the trees start to

589
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:14,120
come in and the trees will get kind of

590
00:24:19,090 --> 00:24:15,770
used to getting burned after a while and

591
00:24:21,940 --> 00:24:19,100
it will start to degrade quality over

592
00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:21,950
time without herbivores like grasslands

593
00:24:27,670 --> 00:24:25,160
need grazers they co-evolved together

594
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:27,680
for 20 million years they absolutely

595
00:24:31,270 --> 00:24:28,910
need each other so you can't really have

596
00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:31,280
a grassland without a grazer and so when

597
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:34,100
I would try to convince a university or

598
00:24:39,630 --> 00:24:36,530
a conservation project to let me bring

599
00:24:41,650 --> 00:24:39,640
in cattle to flash mob grazing

600
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:41,660
restoration just like the Bison would

601
00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:43,430
have you know I got laughed out of the

602
00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:47,180
room because a cows aren't native and B

603
00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:49,790
that's why would we ever do that because

604
00:24:53,529 --> 00:24:52,160
we know that Indians burned so we should

605
00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:53,539
just burn so

606
00:24:57,639 --> 00:24:55,190
they did burn but they burned in order

607
00:25:00,489 --> 00:24:57,649
to bring the Bison and not just to burn

608
00:25:02,889 --> 00:25:00,499
for the heck of it so the contradiction

609
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:02,899
in modern ecological restoration

610
00:25:06,639 --> 00:25:04,460
community especially in the eastern

611
00:25:09,789 --> 00:25:06,649
United States is pretty intense and once

612
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:09,799
you look at the historical record and

613
00:25:13,389 --> 00:25:11,210
what the Native Americans are doing it

614
00:25:15,969 --> 00:25:13,399
becomes blaringly obvious that we can't

615
00:25:19,570 --> 00:25:15,979
restore our historic ecosystems without

616
00:25:22,419 --> 00:25:19,580
playing an active role in the management

617
00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:22,429
and maintenance of those systems mm-hmm

618
00:25:27,460 --> 00:25:24,950
I think that makes a lot of sense and I

619
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,470
also wanted to ask you about water a

620
00:25:32,919 --> 00:25:30,320
little more because I got from those

621
00:25:35,349 --> 00:25:32,929
chapters that you let me check out that

622
00:25:38,769 --> 00:25:35,359
there used to be I guess 250 native

623
00:25:40,930 --> 00:25:38,779
types of freshwater shellfish before I

624
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:40,940
guess the algae start consuming

625
00:25:46,299 --> 00:25:44,210
everything but you say in your area you

626
00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:46,309
say Madison Wisconsin sits nestled

627
00:25:50,349 --> 00:25:48,200
between four lakes surrounded by a large

628
00:25:52,509 --> 00:25:50,359
watershed filled to the brim with urban

629
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:52,519
development and farmland these lakes

630
00:25:56,799 --> 00:25:54,769
therefore continually receive huge

631
00:25:58,930 --> 00:25:56,809
inputs of nitrogen and phosphorus from

632
00:26:01,479 --> 00:25:58,940
the fertilizer spread to keep lawns

633
00:26:03,369 --> 00:26:01,489
green and crop yields high and the heat

634
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:03,379
of summer the city of Madison has to

635
00:26:08,589 --> 00:26:05,690
monitor the lakes for toxic algae blooms

636
00:26:10,389 --> 00:26:08,599
which they typically publicly announce

637
00:26:12,489 --> 00:26:10,399
in order to keep people and their pets

638
00:26:16,389 --> 00:26:12,499
from swimming in the poisoned waters I

639
00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:16,399
think that's just crazy you write in the

640
00:26:21,999 --> 00:26:18,590
book a little bit about clear water

641
00:26:24,729 --> 00:26:22,009
versus this like pea soup like covering

642
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:24,739
that happens how does this affect our

643
00:26:28,509 --> 00:26:26,720
water what was a better way to manage

644
00:26:32,769 --> 00:26:28,519
natural water systems how was it done

645
00:26:35,379 --> 00:26:32,779
before so in Lake ecosystems there's two

646
00:26:37,089 --> 00:26:35,389
states that can exist and they're sort

647
00:26:39,129 --> 00:26:37,099
of like one or the other there's not

648
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:39,139
much in between one is a clear water

649
00:26:44,499 --> 00:26:42,080
state where there's relatively low

650
00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:44,509
amount of phosphorus is the main kicker

651
00:26:51,190 --> 00:26:46,940
in aquatic systems and phosphorus comes

652
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:51,200
in via runoff when it rains from soil it

653
00:26:55,029 --> 00:26:53,450
sticks to soil particles so if you put

654
00:26:56,379 --> 00:26:55,039
phosphorus fertilizer on a crop field

655
00:26:57,849 --> 00:26:56,389
and then it rains it runs into the

656
00:26:59,769 --> 00:26:57,859
waterway and now you got phosphorus in

657
00:27:01,359 --> 00:26:59,779
your water and basically what happens is

658
00:27:03,909 --> 00:27:01,369
when you have a clear water system you

659
00:27:06,220 --> 00:27:03,919
have sunlight getting to the bottom of

660
00:27:07,419 --> 00:27:06,230
the lakes and so in our area we've got a

661
00:27:09,219 --> 00:27:07,429
lot of these glacial lake

662
00:27:10,719 --> 00:27:09,229
they're basically leftover melted

663
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:10,729
glaciers that turned into these lakes

664
00:27:14,379 --> 00:27:13,190
and when you read the historical

665
00:27:17,109 --> 00:27:14,389
accounts of the first settlers

666
00:27:18,489 --> 00:27:17,119
specifically these ones in Madison they

667
00:27:21,849 --> 00:27:18,499
would go out on a canoe and they could

668
00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:21,859
see 250 feet down to the bottom of the

669
00:27:26,889 --> 00:27:24,830
lake and see the white clay lake bottom

670
00:27:30,369 --> 00:27:26,899
and they could see all the plants and

671
00:27:31,719 --> 00:27:30,379
fish in between and so these clear water

672
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:31,729
lakes you know you can think of it kind

673
00:27:34,959 --> 00:27:33,529
of like as a forest so there's sunlight

674
00:27:36,729 --> 00:27:34,969
filtering through the water that

675
00:27:38,289 --> 00:27:36,739
supports plant growth especially around

676
00:27:40,329 --> 00:27:38,299
the edges where it's not too deep and

677
00:27:42,099 --> 00:27:40,339
these plants produce a whole lot of

678
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:42,109
oxygen which then gets dissolved into

679
00:27:46,989 --> 00:27:44,570
the water so these plants produce food

680
00:27:49,899 --> 00:27:46,999
for people like wild rice and Lotus

681
00:27:53,979 --> 00:27:49,909
which produces an edible root cattails

682
00:27:56,769 --> 00:27:53,989
and the like and so these plants are in

683
00:27:58,959 --> 00:27:56,779
there producing both food for humans but

684
00:28:02,529 --> 00:27:58,969
also food for fish and habitat and so

685
00:28:04,719 --> 00:28:02,539
these Clearwater Lakes were super filled

686
00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:04,729
with fish because of all the food and

687
00:28:09,159 --> 00:28:06,950
oxygen that the plants produced it

688
00:28:10,539 --> 00:28:09,169
supported a huge fish ecosystem so there

689
00:28:12,249 --> 00:28:10,549
was like the little fish the pan fish

690
00:28:14,259 --> 00:28:12,259
then the little bass and then you have a

691
00:28:17,469 --> 00:28:14,269
whole you know food chain on up to your

692
00:28:19,810 --> 00:28:17,479
big giant like five foot long lake trout

693
00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:19,820
which were predators that ate other big

694
00:28:24,669 --> 00:28:22,609
fish and this was sort of like you know

695
00:28:26,139 --> 00:28:24,679
I talked about acorns being staple crops

696
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:26,149
for Native Americans they would harvest

697
00:28:29,469 --> 00:28:27,440
those in the fall and that would get

698
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:29,479
them through the winter but summertime

699
00:28:33,999 --> 00:28:32,089
people were on the water pretty much

700
00:28:35,079 --> 00:28:34,009
across North America summer times were

701
00:28:36,879 --> 00:28:35,089
spent on the water because we had such

702
00:28:39,849 --> 00:28:36,889
amazing aquatic resources in terms of

703
00:28:42,099 --> 00:28:39,859
fish and shellfish and so basically what

704
00:28:44,889 --> 00:28:42,109
happens when you put phosphorus in the

705
00:28:47,349 --> 00:28:44,899
water whether that's directly in terms

706
00:28:49,899 --> 00:28:47,359
of sewage or indirectly in terms of

707
00:28:51,639 --> 00:28:49,909
runoff from either crop fields or from

708
00:28:53,019 --> 00:28:51,649
urban development you start putting

709
00:28:55,629 --> 00:28:53,029
phosphorus in that water and it reaches

710
00:28:57,969 --> 00:28:55,639
a threshold where basically there's

711
00:29:00,190 --> 00:28:57,979
enough phosphorous to spawn an algae

712
00:29:02,169 --> 00:29:00,200
bloom and these algie's are really

713
00:29:04,529 --> 00:29:02,179
really ancient cyanobacteria they're

714
00:29:07,450 --> 00:29:04,539
they were the first species to evolve

715
00:29:09,009 --> 00:29:07,460
photosynthesis that releases oxygen as a

716
00:29:10,659 --> 00:29:09,019
byproduct so they were the first ones to

717
00:29:13,089 --> 00:29:10,669
do photosynthesis as we know

718
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:13,099
photosynthesis today a long long long

719
00:29:17,919 --> 00:29:15,440
time ago but anyway once they get enough

720
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:17,929
phosphorous they bloom and they shade

721
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:21,200
out the plants and they consume all the

722
00:29:26,169 --> 00:29:24,320
sex oxygen so the shade kills the plants

723
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:26,179
and the consumption of excess oxygen

724
00:29:31,419 --> 00:29:29,210
kills the fish and then once you kind of

725
00:29:33,730 --> 00:29:31,429
have that for a little while you lose

726
00:29:35,740 --> 00:29:33,740
your plants which then doesn't allow you

727
00:29:38,139 --> 00:29:35,750
to rebuild your fish populations because

728
00:29:40,539 --> 00:29:38,149
of the lack of oxygen and the lack of

729
00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:40,549
food and habitat and so you get a you

730
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:42,710
trophic system which there are some fish

731
00:29:47,379 --> 00:29:45,350
like the Asian carp that can live in

732
00:29:51,159 --> 00:29:47,389
these really murky pea-soup summer

733
00:29:52,779 --> 00:29:51,169
waters feeding on the algae you can get

734
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:52,789
algae feeders that can survive but

735
00:29:56,019 --> 00:29:54,320
pretty much all your other fish and then

736
00:29:59,230 --> 00:29:56,029
all the plant resources all those go

737
00:30:02,019 --> 00:29:59,240
away too and so we call that eutrophic

738
00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:02,029
which just means over nutria fied and so

739
00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:04,940
now we're at a place eastern United

740
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:06,289
States especially in the Midwest where

741
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:09,289
all the AG land is all of the waterways

742
00:30:14,019 --> 00:30:11,510
are eutrophic even the rivers and lakes

743
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:14,029
you can't really fish in them you don't

744
00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:16,850
want to swim in them people's dogs die

745
00:30:20,169 --> 00:30:18,529
every year because they go swimming in

746
00:30:22,450 --> 00:30:20,179
the lake when there's an algae bloom the

747
00:30:25,539 --> 00:30:22,460
cyanobacteria produces a neurotoxin

748
00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:25,549
which is toxic for mammals and so it's

749
00:30:31,950 --> 00:30:29,809
pretty ugly hmm it's just so weird to

750
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:31,960
even think about the intelligence of

751
00:30:37,990 --> 00:30:35,809
nature almost like responding in a way

752
00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:38,000
that's like hey you give me poison you

753
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:40,190
get poison back I don't know it's just a

754
00:30:45,930 --> 00:30:43,039
when you think about the environment is

755
00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:45,940
conscious and there's this relationship

756
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:48,230
regardless of if we're treating it right

757
00:30:52,299 --> 00:30:49,730
or wrong there is a cause-and-effect

758
00:30:53,470 --> 00:30:52,309
relationship that comes right back to us

759
00:30:56,169 --> 00:30:53,480
I mean we're not separate from nature

760
00:30:57,460 --> 00:30:56,179
but we have this idea that we are but I

761
00:30:59,889 --> 00:30:57,470
don't know it's just interesting to see

762
00:31:02,740 --> 00:30:59,899
that dynamic at play on the negative

763
00:31:06,610 --> 00:31:02,750
side of things oh that's exactly right

764
00:31:08,289 --> 00:31:06,620
the landscape is sending us signals all

765
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:08,299
the time telling us we're on the right

766
00:31:11,710 --> 00:31:09,679
track or the wrong track and if we

767
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,720
ignore those and we're on the wrong

768
00:31:16,090 --> 00:31:13,279
track it just gets worse and worse to

769
00:31:17,769 --> 00:31:16,100
the point where you can't grow food

770
00:31:21,490 --> 00:31:17,779
anymore and you're polluted out of house

771
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:21,500
at home indeed and it's interesting and

772
00:31:26,919 --> 00:31:24,080
definitely new to me to hear about the

773
00:31:28,570 --> 00:31:26,929
engineered savannas of America but I

774
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:28,580
wanted to try to squeeze in a little bit

775
00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:31,010
about the Amazon it is obviously the

776
00:31:37,070 --> 00:31:34,980
most complex and biodiverse landscape

777
00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:37,080
the planet and I think the wilderness

778
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:39,480
myth might plague it as well because you

779
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:41,850
told me that it's pretty clear that it

780
00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:44,130
was engineered how do we know what are

781
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:46,500
the signs and clues that kind of show us

782
00:31:56,690 --> 00:31:52,290
that essentially when you exclude humans

783
00:31:58,100 --> 00:31:56,700
the plant community it's the same exact

784
00:31:59,960 --> 00:31:58,110
phenomenon as we're talking about for

785
00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:59,970
North America in that when you have

786
00:32:04,250 --> 00:32:01,679
humans of managing a system for

787
00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:04,260
themselves to produce food those are the

788
00:32:07,940 --> 00:32:05,700
type of species that are going to

789
00:32:10,490 --> 00:32:07,950
persist in your force in your ecosystem

790
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:10,500
whether that's a savanna in the Midwest

791
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:14,520
or the Amazon at the equator and so when

792
00:32:19,370 --> 00:32:16,530
we look at the species composition the

793
00:32:22,820 --> 00:32:19,380
way it was when we can first have any

794
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:22,830
data on it there was a lot more species

795
00:32:27,230 --> 00:32:25,290
that produce food for humans in that

796
00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:27,240
species composition than there is now so

797
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:29,940
as humans are removed and less active in

798
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:32,850
the system it goes to a less diverse

799
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:35,340
state and a state that produces more

800
00:32:39,770 --> 00:32:37,710
trees that don't produce food for humans

801
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:39,780
so there's obviously a wide spectrum of

802
00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:41,250
different species some of them are more

803
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:42,600
valuable than others from a human

804
00:32:48,169 --> 00:32:46,200
perspective the ratio of non-productive

805
00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:48,179
trees has increased over the last

806
00:32:54,650 --> 00:32:51,240
hundred years as humans have been less

807
00:32:57,020 --> 00:32:54,660
active in the ecosystem and so what's

808
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:57,030
really interesting is if you read about

809
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:00,240
the indigenous people of the Amazon we

810
00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:01,830
call their practices of Agriculture

811
00:33:07,370 --> 00:33:03,660
slash-and-burn which is a very

812
00:33:09,230 --> 00:33:07,380
derogatory way of gaining your existence

813
00:33:11,510 --> 00:33:09,240
slashing and burning sounds so bad and

814
00:33:13,580 --> 00:33:11,520
we look down upon them for it but when

815
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:13,590
you actually go down to the Yucatan

816
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:15,690
which I have not done but I have spoken

817
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:18,600
to several archeologists that have spent

818
00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:19,770
a lot of time down there trying to

819
00:33:24,350 --> 00:33:21,720
figure out the old ways of growing food

820
00:33:26,539 --> 00:33:24,360
and essentially you know they would go

821
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:26,549
into an area and clear out say an acre

822
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:28,799
of forest and then they would burn that

823
00:33:32,150 --> 00:33:30,510
and they would burn the biomass in a

824
00:33:33,530 --> 00:33:32,160
very low intensity way like you

825
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:33,540
mentioned biochar it creates a lot of

826
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:36,419
charcoal so down in the Amazon they

827
00:33:41,780 --> 00:33:39,210
don't have the thick top soils that we

828
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:41,790
have thanks to our grassland ecosystems

829
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,770
grassland ecosystems create topsoil

830
00:33:48,830 --> 00:33:45,600
that's like one of the byproducts of a

831
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:48,840
grassland with grazers is thick topsoil

832
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:50,610
and so we have that up here down there

833
00:33:56,539 --> 00:33:53,279
in a forest all the nutrients that we

834
00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:56,549
have in our soils they have locked up in

835
00:34:01,970 --> 00:33:59,039
their giant trees and plants and so they

836
00:34:04,190 --> 00:34:01,980
really don't have a soil all of the

837
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:04,200
potential nutrients are used in a

838
00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:05,850
rainforest ecosystem they're all up

839
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:07,380
above ground they're not below ground

840
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:10,800
and so it's really hard to grow annual

841
00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:13,770
crops so vegetables corn grains it's

842
00:34:17,659 --> 00:34:15,419
hard to grow that stuff because there's

843
00:34:19,369 --> 00:34:17,669
no soil minerals all the nutrients are

844
00:34:21,790 --> 00:34:19,379
locked up in the trees so they would cut

845
00:34:24,379 --> 00:34:21,800
down trees so they would slash and burn

846
00:34:26,839 --> 00:34:24,389
but they would do it on at whole and as

847
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:26,849
a part of this much larger cycle of food

848
00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:28,649
production so you'd come into an area

849
00:34:33,379 --> 00:34:31,830
you'd cut down an acre of forest and you

850
00:34:34,909 --> 00:34:33,389
would burn it in a way that produced a

851
00:34:37,579 --> 00:34:34,919
whole bunch of charcoal on the ground

852
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:37,589
then you could plant your guard and say

853
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:39,210
so you're gonna have a really diverse

854
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:42,990
Garden of 80 to 150 different vegetables

855
00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:45,270
and plant species and grains but at the

856
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:47,720
same time you're also planting

857
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:50,490
fast-growing and slow growing perennial

858
00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:53,010
trees to grow for your vegetables to

859
00:34:58,130 --> 00:34:55,560
grow between and so they would plant

860
00:35:01,070 --> 00:34:58,140
their favorite fruit and nut bearing

861
00:35:03,140 --> 00:35:01,080
trees in their gardens and so in one

862
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:03,150
year they might slash and burn one acre

863
00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:06,900
but then that acre over the next 20

864
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:08,550
years you know for the first two or

865
00:35:10,970 --> 00:35:09,810
three years its producing annual

866
00:35:12,950 --> 00:35:10,980
vegetables but then they would stop that

867
00:35:14,270 --> 00:35:12,960
and then they would just let the fruit

868
00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:14,280
and nut trees come and then they have

869
00:35:19,849 --> 00:35:16,700
this one acre orchard or food forest of

870
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:19,859
breadfruit and avocados and bananas and

871
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:21,270
all the things that they have down there

872
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:23,010
and then they could go do that again

873
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:25,170
somewhere else and so you kind of zoom

874
00:35:29,150 --> 00:35:26,820
out and look at that process it's like a

875
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:29,160
20 year process by year 20 it's a closed

876
00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:31,140
canopy forest of all food producing

877
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:33,359
trees and they had a immense diversity

878
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:34,770
down there so we're talking like

879
00:35:39,099 --> 00:35:36,960
hundreds of species and if that had been

880
00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:39,109
let go there would have been like the

881
00:35:44,359 --> 00:35:42,420
two dozen plant species that would have

882
00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:44,369
been there that they cut and burned that

883
00:35:47,540 --> 00:35:45,960
would have been there but that's fairly

884
00:35:49,370 --> 00:35:47,550
low diversity relative to what they

885
00:35:51,410 --> 00:35:49,380
would then turn around and plant so then

886
00:35:52,910 --> 00:35:51,420
you look at that scale at the one acre

887
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:52,920
scale and then look at the whole Amazon

888
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:54,690
and imagine hundreds of thousands of

889
00:35:59,390 --> 00:35:56,730
people over time doing that in all the

890
00:36:01,250 --> 00:35:59,400
little patches what that turns into over

891
00:36:02,970 --> 00:36:01,260
time is an Amazon rainforest that's

892
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:02,980
essentially one

893
00:36:08,980 --> 00:36:05,690
shifting mosaic of food forest so they

894
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:08,990
were essentially terraforming the Amazon

895
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:11,450
in order to produce a whole lot of

896
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:14,960
perennial foods like food from trees you

897
00:36:17,350 --> 00:36:16,250
know they had their annual vegetables in

898
00:36:19,090 --> 00:36:17,360
there but that was only a small part of

899
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:19,100
the cycle the main point is that they

900
00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:21,950
were planting lots of trees yeah and

901
00:36:26,770 --> 00:36:24,470
when you think about the intelligence of

902
00:36:28,990 --> 00:36:26,780
the people who set that environment off

903
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:29,000
it's just pretty mind-blowing because

904
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:30,530
like you said there's thousands of

905
00:36:34,510 --> 00:36:32,210
species that live in the Amazon and

906
00:36:36,610 --> 00:36:34,520
nowhere else and a lot of things we

907
00:36:39,550 --> 00:36:36,620
haven't even cataloged yet and when you

908
00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:39,560
think about that being engineered you

909
00:36:44,140 --> 00:36:41,120
really have to consider the relationship

910
00:36:46,060 --> 00:36:44,150
between even DNA and some of these

911
00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:46,070
processes I think you talked about it

912
00:36:50,650 --> 00:36:48,110
and your chapters is the connection

913
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:50,660
between complexity and diversity versus

914
00:36:55,390 --> 00:36:52,670
disturbance that there's a relationship

915
00:36:57,460 --> 00:36:55,400
there because obviously we're going to a

916
00:37:00,160 --> 00:36:57,470
pretty deep time depth but it's almost

917
00:37:02,980 --> 00:37:00,170
like conjuring things that didn't exist

918
00:37:05,350 --> 00:37:02,990
before into being through a proper

919
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:05,360
setting of the stage so to speak you

920
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:09,050
know yeah I mean those disturbances are

921
00:37:14,230 --> 00:37:11,570
key to maintaining diversity in time

922
00:37:17,830 --> 00:37:14,240
because you get kind of static in the

923
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:17,840
same place over time and so you know you

924
00:37:22,210 --> 00:37:19,490
get these disturbances that can either

925
00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:22,220
be a small scale like Native American

926
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:23,720
burning somewhere or like a

927
00:37:27,940 --> 00:37:25,850
slash-and-burn project down in the

928
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:27,950
Amazon or you can get the large scale

929
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:30,050
disturbances like the end of the Ice Age

930
00:37:35,020 --> 00:37:32,570
the Younger Dryas the comet in the

931
00:37:37,060 --> 00:37:35,030
Yucatan that wiped out the dinosaurs in

932
00:37:39,420 --> 00:37:37,070
order to keep nature going

933
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:39,430
we need these continual disturbances

934
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:41,930
yeah I don't think people really think

935
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:43,850
about that but it is a cycle it really

936
00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:45,890
speaks to that it's somewhat of an

937
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:47,990
occult principle but order out of chaos

938
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:51,290
it seems like as you said there are

939
00:37:55,780 --> 00:37:53,720
examples where they tried to do

940
00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:55,790
controlled burns on a schedule and they

941
00:37:58,960 --> 00:37:57,710
saw that that didn't really work they

942
00:38:00,820 --> 00:37:58,970
tried to not do it at all and that

943
00:38:04,780 --> 00:38:00,830
didn't really work it needs to somewhat

944
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:04,790
be randomized to a degree and I don't

945
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:06,770
know it's just strange because when you

946
00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:09,890
get into the magical mindset of druids

947
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:11,900
and pagans they're very of the earth and

948
00:38:16,270 --> 00:38:15,200
that's kind of talks down on from like

949
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:16,280
the Catholic

950
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:17,510
perspective of course they were

951
00:38:23,290 --> 00:38:19,820
obviously genocided in their own right

952
00:38:25,540 --> 00:38:23,300
but the principles are right there in

953
00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:25,550
practice when dealing with the natural

954
00:38:29,700 --> 00:38:27,940
landscape it's it's baked into our

955
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:29,710
system it seems

956
00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:31,610
yeah well it's interesting you know you

957
00:38:38,050 --> 00:38:35,270
mentioned how clearly the Native

958
00:38:39,610 --> 00:38:38,060
Americans or the Amazonians display a

959
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:39,620
lot of intelligence in the way that

960
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:41,450
they're managing the landscape but the

961
00:38:45,100 --> 00:38:43,520
interesting thing is it depends on how

962
00:38:47,710 --> 00:38:45,110
you define the word intelligence so if

963
00:38:50,410 --> 00:38:47,720
you were to give them maybe like an IQ

964
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:50,420
test which is developed to measure a

965
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,110
sort of Western centric type of right

966
00:38:58,240 --> 00:38:56,240
brained intelligence you know they may

967
00:39:01,570 --> 00:38:58,250
or may not actually do that well on that

968
00:39:03,220 --> 00:39:01,580
but in terms of being able to connect

969
00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:03,230
with nature they're on a whole nother

970
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:07,430
level and so it's almost like before we

971
00:39:12,370 --> 00:39:09,470
developed the Industrial Revolution and

972
00:39:13,990 --> 00:39:12,380
even the Agricultural Revolution we were

973
00:39:15,820 --> 00:39:14,000
all much closer to the earth and we all

974
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:15,830
had this sort of earth-based

975
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:18,560
consciousness like we were plugged into

976
00:39:24,130 --> 00:39:21,680
the biosphere we were a part of it and

977
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:24,140
we could sense with our sensory organs

978
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:26,690
we could send sort of what the landscape

979
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:28,970
wanted and what we should do within the

980
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:31,130
landscape to benefit both the land and

981
00:39:35,110 --> 00:39:33,110
ourselves and that was just sort of like

982
00:39:38,470 --> 00:39:35,120
an inherent Sixth Sense that we all had

983
00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:38,480
and it seems like the development of the

984
00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:40,790
right brained logic and rational side of

985
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:42,560
things that has started with the

986
00:39:47,020 --> 00:39:44,210
development of Agriculture and has sort

987
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:47,030
of plateaued with the Renaissance and

988
00:39:51,940 --> 00:39:49,190
the Industrial Revolution the

989
00:39:54,550 --> 00:39:51,950
consequence of that is we completely cut

990
00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:54,560
off our consciousness from the earth

991
00:40:00,700 --> 00:39:56,480
consciousness so we have developed this

992
00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:00,710
very powerful individual ego but it is

993
00:40:06,370 --> 00:40:02,840
divorced it is separated from the

994
00:40:08,170 --> 00:40:06,380
natural world and so while now we may

995
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:08,180
have very smart people and very

996
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:09,490
intelligent people that can do really

997
00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:12,650
amazing and impressive feats of the mind

998
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:17,140
we've lost the ability to connect and to

999
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:20,090
have our consciousness be in touch with

1000
00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:21,770
the consciousness of the earth and so

1001
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:24,980
where I see us having to go from here is

1002
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:26,720
like we've developed this amazing

1003
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:28,730
intellect and now we have to use that

1004
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:30,050
intellect

1005
00:40:34,750 --> 00:40:32,810
consciously go back and reconnect with

1006
00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:34,760
our ecosystem so you know the indigenous

1007
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:36,200
people in North America they weren't

1008
00:40:39,820 --> 00:40:38,240
consciously embedded in their landscape

1009
00:40:42,070 --> 00:40:39,830
they were unconsciously embedded they

1010
00:40:44,290 --> 00:40:42,080
didn't know any other way now we've come

1011
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:44,300
completely divorced from that and it's

1012
00:40:49,330 --> 00:40:46,640
time for us to consciously go and

1013
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:49,340
realize the problem which is that we're

1014
00:40:52,540 --> 00:40:51,110
disconnected from nature and then we

1015
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:52,550
have to consciously go back and

1016
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:55,670
reconnect ourselves cheers to that

1017
00:40:59,530 --> 00:40:57,530
and as we have talked about a lot of

1018
00:41:01,720 --> 00:40:59,540
this does start in the mind if your

1019
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:01,730
ideas and philosophy are wrong then

1020
00:41:06,220 --> 00:41:03,650
you're wrong actions are going to follow

1021
00:41:08,350 --> 00:41:06,230
and maybe this is where social

1022
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:08,360
conditioning and control come in I'm

1023
00:41:13,090 --> 00:41:11,090
sure it's both by design and a little

1024
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:13,100
accidental ignorance the situation that

1025
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:15,710
we're in right now but you write about

1026
00:41:21,790 --> 00:41:18,530
this you frame it up as the organic mind

1027
00:41:24,460 --> 00:41:21,800
verse the mechanical mind and some of

1028
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:24,470
those details will be self-evident but

1029
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,090
talk to us a little bit about the

1030
00:41:30,370 --> 00:41:28,400
difference in how we can better

1031
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:30,380
understand the mechanical mind to get

1032
00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:32,450
away from it and move back towards that

1033
00:41:38,770 --> 00:41:35,720
organic mindset well the mechanical mind

1034
00:41:40,900 --> 00:41:38,780
is basically how we've all been

1035
00:41:43,450 --> 00:41:40,910
programmed and I would absolutely agree

1036
00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:43,460
that it's probably more accidental and

1037
00:41:49,390 --> 00:41:46,120
incidental than anything else but

1038
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:49,400
essentially we've been programmed to see

1039
00:41:55,060 --> 00:41:52,640
the world through a lens where the

1040
00:41:56,350 --> 00:41:55,070
machine is sort of the ultimate metaphor

1041
00:41:58,510 --> 00:41:56,360
you know we think of the universe as

1042
00:42:02,080 --> 00:41:58,520
being like clock-like and that there's

1043
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:02,090
sort of this deterministic natural world

1044
00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:04,070
that we fit within and everything is

1045
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:08,590
random and the ultimate goal of any

1046
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:10,850
operation or any person is to sort of

1047
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:13,370
achieve machine-like efficiency and

1048
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:15,020
perfection so when you hear some

1049
00:42:18,940 --> 00:42:16,910
politicians saying we need policies that

1050
00:42:20,620 --> 00:42:18,950
increase the efficiency of this or that

1051
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:20,630
we all just sort of passively nod our

1052
00:42:23,830 --> 00:42:22,010
head like well of course that's a good

1053
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:23,840
thing like increasing efficiency is

1054
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:25,910
always a good thing well increasing

1055
00:42:30,130 --> 00:42:28,160
efficiency is a good thing sometimes but

1056
00:42:32,830 --> 00:42:30,140
it can be a horrible idea

1057
00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:32,840
some other times and so stepping back a

1058
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:35,270
little bit we can see that the

1059
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:37,670
mechanical or machine like conditioning

1060
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:40,250
that we've all undergone has allowed us

1061
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:42,290
to become really powerful and do things

1062
00:42:45,690 --> 00:42:44,170
like develop computers

1063
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:45,700
and talk to each other across the

1064
00:42:52,260 --> 00:42:48,970
internet wirelessly which is amazing but

1065
00:42:54,359 --> 00:42:52,270
the consequence of that is we're our

1066
00:42:56,609 --> 00:42:54,369
cells starting to become machine like

1067
00:42:57,809 --> 00:42:56,619
we're losing which we've already lost

1068
00:42:59,520 --> 00:42:57,819
our connection with the natural world

1069
00:43:01,920 --> 00:42:59,530
but now we're to the point we're so

1070
00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:01,930
addicted to our screens it's been shown

1071
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:03,670
that the more time you spend in front of

1072
00:43:07,710 --> 00:43:06,130
a screen the lower your empathy goes

1073
00:43:08,910 --> 00:43:07,720
which is really the fundamental

1074
00:43:12,599 --> 00:43:08,920
characteristic that makes us human

1075
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:12,609
beings and so as we keep developing in

1076
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:15,010
the mechanical world we lose our

1077
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:16,150
connection to nature we lose our

1078
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:19,119
connection to each other and the

1079
00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:21,130
endpoint of that basically is humans

1080
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:23,049
fully integrating in machines which

1081
00:43:28,309 --> 00:43:25,599
seems like an agenda that there are

1082
00:43:30,690 --> 00:43:28,319
powers that are pushing us towards but

1083
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:30,700
that doesn't mean we have to go along

1084
00:43:35,490 --> 00:43:32,410
with it and so it's my contention that

1085
00:43:37,230 --> 00:43:35,500
we need to sort of unplug a bit like

1086
00:43:38,670 --> 00:43:37,240
let's use technology for good and

1087
00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:38,680
recognize all the great things about

1088
00:43:42,690 --> 00:43:40,630
technology but hold back a little bit

1089
00:43:44,730 --> 00:43:42,700
and let's be mindful about this and

1090
00:43:47,370 --> 00:43:44,740
figure out what areas of technology

1091
00:43:50,670 --> 00:43:47,380
should we avoid and how can we use

1092
00:43:52,530 --> 00:43:50,680
technology to increase our reconnection

1093
00:43:54,210 --> 00:43:52,540
with the natural rule because this

1094
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:54,220
trajectory that we're on with the

1095
00:43:58,650 --> 00:43:56,650
machine model which applied towards food

1096
00:44:00,960 --> 00:43:58,660
means that we have factory farms we have

1097
00:44:02,490 --> 00:44:00,970
industrial agriculture which is at a

1098
00:44:04,049 --> 00:44:02,500
fundamental level destroying the planet

1099
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:04,059
and which is one of the reasons why I'm

1100
00:44:08,430 --> 00:44:05,890
doing what I'm doing is because when you

1101
00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:08,440
kind of realize the extent that we're

1102
00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:10,660
polluting the earth and compromising the

1103
00:44:15,809 --> 00:44:12,790
basic functionings of the planets

1104
00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:15,819
ecosystems humans can't live without a

1105
00:44:20,490 --> 00:44:18,760
planet that's functioning and so we're

1106
00:44:22,349 --> 00:44:20,500
able to sort of buy ourselves a little

1107
00:44:24,150 --> 00:44:22,359
bit of time with really cheap fossil

1108
00:44:27,059 --> 00:44:24,160
fuels but because those fossil fuels

1109
00:44:28,740 --> 00:44:27,069
substitute for a lot of the goods and

1110
00:44:30,839 --> 00:44:28,750
services that we get from ecosystems but

1111
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:30,849
that's a band-aid that doesn't last for

1112
00:44:35,910 --> 00:44:33,130
very long and so we really have to get

1113
00:44:37,380 --> 00:44:35,920
our ecosystems back going if Humanity is

1114
00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:37,390
going to survive on this planet and the

1115
00:44:43,319 --> 00:44:39,640
only way I see us being able to do that

1116
00:44:46,049 --> 00:44:43,329
is to get out of this mechanical mindset

1117
00:44:48,299 --> 00:44:46,059
because the mechanical mindset does not

1118
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:48,309
work in the development of an ecosystem

1119
00:44:53,549 --> 00:44:50,650
you can't restore an ecosystem with the

1120
00:44:54,980 --> 00:44:53,559
mechanical mindset nature will chew you

1121
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:54,990
up and spit you out

1122
00:45:00,029 --> 00:44:57,970
amen and that's exactly the kind

1123
00:45:02,190 --> 00:45:00,039
Thayne I was hoping we would get into

1124
00:45:04,950 --> 00:45:02,200
because we can talk about screen

1125
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:04,960
addiction and 5g and techno surveillance

1126
00:45:08,789 --> 00:45:07,210
all these things that the conspiracy

1127
00:45:11,970 --> 00:45:08,799
culture is really concerned about

1128
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:11,980
shaking their fist at the air but that

1129
00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:15,910
doesn't do anything to fix it I mean we

1130
00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:17,950
can say we've been led down this bad

1131
00:45:23,250 --> 00:45:20,950
path and sure it's important to see how

1132
00:45:25,230 --> 00:45:23,260
that happened and exactly what

1133
00:45:27,930 --> 00:45:25,240
manipulations were in place and how bad

1134
00:45:31,230 --> 00:45:27,940
it was but it doesn't do anything to get

1135
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:31,240
us off of that path this really is the

1136
00:45:36,450 --> 00:45:34,030
only way off as far as I can see and it

1137
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:36,460
really gets to the heart of that

1138
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:38,890
personal responsibility element that is

1139
00:45:43,710 --> 00:45:41,770
also what I think is important about

1140
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:43,720
learning about magic I mean I think

1141
00:45:48,809 --> 00:45:46,450
nature personal responsibility magic

1142
00:45:51,420 --> 00:45:48,819
it's all kind of in that soup the

1143
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:51,430
solution soup for getting us where we

1144
00:45:56,279 --> 00:45:53,470
want to go instead of just bitching

1145
00:45:58,920 --> 00:45:56,289
about where we've been yeah I mean

1146
00:46:01,200 --> 00:45:58,930
totally it we gotta find solutions not

1147
00:46:04,109 --> 00:46:01,210
just focus on the problems right so to

1148
00:46:07,289 --> 00:46:04,119
me the solutions involve sort of a

1149
00:46:09,210 --> 00:46:07,299
fundamental level rediscovering what it

1150
00:46:10,349 --> 00:46:09,220
means to be human like what does it mean

1151
00:46:12,089 --> 00:46:10,359
to be a human being

1152
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:12,099
are there certain things that humans

1153
00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:13,450
need to go through in order to be

1154
00:46:17,940 --> 00:46:15,730
healthy in order to be satisfied to have

1155
00:46:19,589 --> 00:46:17,950
a meaningful life and are we missing

1156
00:46:21,630 --> 00:46:19,599
those things in our modern world I would

1157
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:21,640
argue that we are missing many many

1158
00:46:28,589 --> 00:46:25,510
things that our consciousness need to

1159
00:46:30,809 --> 00:46:28,599
experience to be complete full happy

1160
00:46:32,309 --> 00:46:30,819
human beings and so that's sort of like

1161
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:32,319
the place to start but then you sort of

1162
00:46:37,980 --> 00:46:33,910
realize once you start going down this

1163
00:46:40,250 --> 00:46:37,990
path all of our senses are dulled and

1164
00:46:42,020 --> 00:46:40,260
kind of [\h__\h]

1165
00:46:43,910 --> 00:46:42,030
all of our senses they're like muscles

1166
00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:43,920
so like our eyes are like muscles and if

1167
00:46:49,099 --> 00:46:46,230
we don't use them they start to degrade

1168
00:46:53,240 --> 00:46:49,109
and our hearing and our sense of smell

1169
00:46:55,730 --> 00:46:53,250
and our sense of touch all of our senses

1170
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:55,740
are being dulled the longer we sit in

1171
00:46:59,180 --> 00:46:57,210
front of screens and all the time that

1172
00:47:03,290 --> 00:46:59,190
we're not out in nature actually

1173
00:47:07,730 --> 00:47:03,300
interacting with the real world our

1174
00:47:09,770 --> 00:47:07,740
senses are atrophying and so that's like

1175
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:09,780
the first place to start is getting back

1176
00:47:13,609 --> 00:47:11,790
in touch with your sense of smell and

1177
00:47:17,300 --> 00:47:13,619
your sense of touch and your sense of

1178
00:47:18,620 --> 00:47:17,310
sight and being able to see birds being

1179
00:47:21,500 --> 00:47:18,630
able to identify a bird in your

1180
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:21,510
peripheral vision without thinking about

1181
00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:24,330
it all these things that our human

1182
00:47:29,660 --> 00:47:27,060
bodies are evolved to do a whole bunch

1183
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:29,670
of things like we should know all of the

1184
00:47:35,210 --> 00:47:32,550
different sights and smells and sounds

1185
00:47:37,070 --> 00:47:35,220
of animals and birds and plants we

1186
00:47:38,270 --> 00:47:37,080
shouldn't have to see a bear before

1187
00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:38,280
walking through the woods we should just

1188
00:47:41,359 --> 00:47:39,750
know that a bear was there an hour ago

1189
00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:41,369
because there's a certain kind of scent

1190
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:43,350
left on a certain kind of plant and

1191
00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:46,800
these are the kinds of things that all

1192
00:47:51,260 --> 00:47:48,720
of our ancestors knew and I'm not saying

1193
00:47:53,359 --> 00:47:51,270
like we all need to get that deep into

1194
00:47:55,310 --> 00:47:53,369
it it's just we need to realize what

1195
00:47:57,950 --> 00:47:55,320
we've lost essentially in order to start

1196
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,960
finding it back and so I'm never gonna

1197
00:48:01,970 --> 00:48:00,240
be that in touch with nature that I can

1198
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:01,980
do these things I'm talking about but I

1199
00:48:07,220 --> 00:48:04,650
can make sure that my kids grow up in a

1200
00:48:10,970 --> 00:48:07,230
world where they have the opportunities

1201
00:48:14,330 --> 00:48:10,980
to keep their senses sharp and maintain

1202
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:14,340
more of a human existence mm-hmm I

1203
00:48:17,599 --> 00:48:15,690
thought that was really interesting

1204
00:48:20,359 --> 00:48:17,609
because you kind of talk about how it

1205
00:48:23,330 --> 00:48:20,369
does take a generation that might be a

1206
00:48:24,620 --> 00:48:23,340
bitter pill to swallow because people

1207
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:24,630
want to think they can change it

1208
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:27,450
themselves but we kind of have this

1209
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:30,570
slave mentality this suckling at the

1210
00:48:36,290 --> 00:48:32,970
societal t attitude we have lost

1211
00:48:40,609 --> 00:48:36,300
personal responsibility and maybe we are

1212
00:48:43,099 --> 00:48:40,619
so brainwashed that we only can correct

1213
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:43,109
it by letting our kids be a little less

1214
00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:44,970
brainwashed and then their kids a little

1215
00:48:50,780 --> 00:48:47,609
less brainwashed and that might be the

1216
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:50,790
sad reality that we're kind of too far

1217
00:48:55,790 --> 00:48:53,520
gone at this point to save ourselves

1218
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:55,800
yeah I mean it is sad when you think

1219
00:49:02,000 --> 00:48:58,800
about it I think that it is totally

1220
00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:02,010
possible for all of us to do what we're

1221
00:49:07,550 --> 00:49:05,310
talking about and sort of deprogram our

1222
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:07,560
brains and then reprogram them in a more

1223
00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:09,810
natural light we can all do that but it

1224
00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:11,400
takes a lot of work it takes decades

1225
00:49:16,460 --> 00:49:14,089
years and years and years of work and

1226
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:16,470
many people aren't going to be willing

1227
00:49:21,230 --> 00:49:19,440
to do that and so the probably more

1228
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:21,240
realistic way is you know we need a

1229
00:49:25,849 --> 00:49:23,310
certain percentage of people to undergo

1230
00:49:27,829 --> 00:49:25,859
that in this generation and then we need

1231
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:27,839
to basically raise the next generation

1232
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:30,650
in a way where they're not as programmed

1233
00:49:34,730 --> 00:49:33,089
not that we have to program them the

1234
00:49:37,810 --> 00:49:34,740
right way but we just got to try to keep

1235
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:37,820
them from being programmed the wrong way

1236
00:49:42,260 --> 00:49:39,930
yeah I mean I agree with you it's kind

1237
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:42,270
of like nature will take its course and

1238
00:49:48,230 --> 00:49:45,510
the proper mindsets will become apparent

1239
00:49:52,099 --> 00:49:48,240
with less manipulation at least I think

1240
00:49:53,839 --> 00:49:52,109
so yes I agree and so just to get back

1241
00:49:55,370 --> 00:49:53,849
to a little bit to what you do I'm sure

1242
00:49:58,010 --> 00:49:55,380
there's all sorts of little nuances

1243
00:49:59,930 --> 00:49:58,020
about how complex systems operate that

1244
00:50:00,260 --> 00:49:59,940
you wouldn't see until you're really in

1245
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:00,270
it

1246
00:50:03,890 --> 00:50:01,920
like one example I've heard you talk

1247
00:50:06,020 --> 00:50:03,900
about is how we know animals like to

1248
00:50:07,790 --> 00:50:06,030
scratch their butts on trees right but

1249
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:07,800
pigs roll around in mud and then when

1250
00:50:12,050 --> 00:50:09,690
they do it they're actually packing mud

1251
00:50:14,390 --> 00:50:12,060
around the base of the tree which

1252
00:50:15,770 --> 00:50:14,400
protects it and keeps pests away and

1253
00:50:18,380 --> 00:50:15,780
that sort of thing and I just thought

1254
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:18,390
that was a really cool cause and effect

1255
00:50:23,420 --> 00:50:20,490
are there other similar examples you've

1256
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:23,430
seen in nature's intelligence that you

1257
00:50:29,540 --> 00:50:26,730
could tell us about oh yeah there's lots

1258
00:50:31,730 --> 00:50:29,550
of things you know one thing would be

1259
00:50:35,300 --> 00:50:31,740
that one of the big concerns right now

1260
00:50:39,890 --> 00:50:35,310
with so called climate change is methane

1261
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:39,900
and cattle are the big targets for that

1262
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:40,890
it's like we got to get rid of our

1263
00:50:43,940 --> 00:50:42,330
cattle because they're farting and

1264
00:50:47,150 --> 00:50:43,950
belching well the methane more comes

1265
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:47,160
from their burps and you can measure it

1266
00:50:51,170 --> 00:50:48,930
because when they go to a confined

1267
00:50:54,380 --> 00:50:51,180
animal feed lot operation a big factory

1268
00:50:56,210 --> 00:50:54,390
where they stuffed cows in a building

1269
00:50:57,740 --> 00:50:56,220
they can seal the building and then they

1270
00:51:00,320 --> 00:50:57,750
can count and measure the amount of

1271
00:51:02,030 --> 00:51:00,330
methane coming off right the fact that

1272
00:51:04,670 --> 00:51:02,040
it's a factory operation makes it really

1273
00:51:06,349 --> 00:51:04,680
easy to measure the methane okay now you

1274
00:51:07,450 --> 00:51:06,359
put a cow out on pasture it's a lot

1275
00:51:10,299 --> 00:51:07,460
harder to measure

1276
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:10,309
they just assume that because feedlot

1277
00:51:15,460 --> 00:51:13,010
cows produce a lot of methane pastured

1278
00:51:18,130 --> 00:51:15,470
cows must too but the research that's

1279
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:18,140
coming out now is that in healthy

1280
00:51:23,290 --> 00:51:20,720
pastures where the soil is being built

1281
00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:23,300
through responsible grazing there are a

1282
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:25,220
class of bacteria called methane

1283
00:51:29,620 --> 00:51:27,650
atrophic bacteria that consumes methane

1284
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:29,630
and so when a cows got its head down

1285
00:51:36,010 --> 00:51:33,170
eating grass it may burp and methane may

1286
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:36,020
come out but it immediately gets gobbled

1287
00:51:41,890 --> 00:51:39,050
up by that bacteria which then converts

1288
00:51:45,220 --> 00:51:41,900
that methane into a co2 making it much

1289
00:51:48,339 --> 00:51:45,230
less harmful of a greenhouse gas so when

1290
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:48,349
you isolate components out of nature you

1291
00:51:52,660 --> 00:51:50,510
get problems you get pest disease you

1292
00:51:54,370 --> 00:51:52,670
know all of our agriculture whether

1293
00:51:56,950 --> 00:51:54,380
we're talking conventional orchards or

1294
00:51:58,690 --> 00:51:56,960
crop fields you basically take one

1295
00:52:00,250 --> 00:51:58,700
component of nature say an almond tree

1296
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:00,260
and we're gonna plant thousands of

1297
00:52:02,380 --> 00:52:01,490
thousands of almond trees right next to

1298
00:52:04,930 --> 00:52:02,390
each other we're gonna spray herbicide

1299
00:52:06,609 --> 00:52:04,940
to keep the grass is down yada yada yada

1300
00:52:08,559 --> 00:52:06,619
you like separate something from the

1301
00:52:10,030 --> 00:52:08,569
rest of nature when you do that nature

1302
00:52:11,410 --> 00:52:10,040
doesn't like it and it creates problems

1303
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:11,420
for you and you're just like setting

1304
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:13,490
yourself up for a constant fight against

1305
00:52:18,370 --> 00:52:16,250
diseases and you take pigs and you put

1306
00:52:19,630 --> 00:52:18,380
them into a feedlot well then they start

1307
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:19,640
getting sick and so what do you do you

1308
00:52:22,359 --> 00:52:21,170
start giving them antibiotics well now

1309
00:52:24,190 --> 00:52:22,369
we've got antibiotic resistant bacteria

1310
00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:24,200
so there's this like arms race that

1311
00:52:28,390 --> 00:52:26,780
happens when we fight nature the cool

1312
00:52:31,210 --> 00:52:28,400
thing is when we start to work with

1313
00:52:33,250 --> 00:52:31,220
nature is that it flips the other way so

1314
00:52:36,130 --> 00:52:33,260
instead of nature hurting us nature

1315
00:52:39,039 --> 00:52:36,140
starts to help us and the example of the

1316
00:52:40,539 --> 00:52:39,049
pigs is a great example of that where if

1317
00:52:42,250 --> 00:52:40,549
you have an apple orchard there's all

1318
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:42,260
kinds of bugs that want to eat those

1319
00:52:45,700 --> 00:52:44,000
apples and many of them crawl right up

1320
00:52:47,260 --> 00:52:45,710
the trunk of the tree to get to the

1321
00:52:48,910 --> 00:52:47,270
apples well if you've got pigs in there

1322
00:52:50,230 --> 00:52:48,920
and they're wallowing in mud and

1323
00:52:52,180 --> 00:52:50,240
scratching their butts on the tree then

1324
00:52:54,039 --> 00:52:52,190
they seal that tree and now that insects

1325
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:54,049
can't climb up anymore and so there's

1326
00:52:59,349 --> 00:52:57,650
lots of examples like that where when

1327
00:53:01,240 --> 00:52:59,359
you start to work in natural systems

1328
00:53:04,030 --> 00:53:01,250
nature rewards you because there's all

1329
00:53:07,569 --> 00:53:04,040
these knock-on benefits that you

1330
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:07,579
probably didn't anticipate by restoring

1331
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:09,650
a more natural system

1332
00:53:13,930 --> 00:53:11,839
Wow man yeah I think those little

1333
00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:13,940
examples are pretty fun and interesting

1334
00:53:17,620 --> 00:53:15,529
and maybe we can take that a little

1335
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:17,630
further with what you do on the farm in

1336
00:53:22,930 --> 00:53:19,910
terms of using animals in place of

1337
00:53:25,109 --> 00:53:22,940
mechanical tools it's sort of along the

1338
00:53:27,370 --> 00:53:25,119
same lines and also ties into the

1339
00:53:29,470 --> 00:53:27,380
rotational grazing that you mentioned

1340
00:53:33,339 --> 00:53:29,480
earlier but what more can be said about

1341
00:53:35,259 --> 00:53:33,349
a well oiled Farms ability to get a

1342
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:35,269
little sweat equity out of its animals

1343
00:53:41,950 --> 00:53:40,249
in holistic and natural ways yeah so I

1344
00:53:44,349 --> 00:53:41,960
guess we could back up a little bit you

1345
00:53:46,539 --> 00:53:44,359
know we call it mastodon valley farm for

1346
00:53:48,519 --> 00:53:46,549
a couple reasons one is that there was a

1347
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:48,529
big Mastodon skeleton found after a

1348
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:51,170
flood back in the early 1900s just a few

1349
00:53:54,609 --> 00:53:52,910
miles from our farm so there's lots of

1350
00:53:55,989 --> 00:53:54,619
mastodons in our area

1351
00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:55,999
but there are mastodons all over eastern

1352
00:53:59,620 --> 00:53:58,130
North America along with the rest of the

1353
00:54:01,539 --> 00:53:59,630
megafauna there's a lot of megafauna on

1354
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:01,549
this continent before the last ice age

1355
00:54:05,109 --> 00:54:03,410
and they had been here for a very long

1356
00:54:08,370 --> 00:54:05,119
time about 30 million years and we're

1357
00:54:11,499 --> 00:54:08,380
talking big horses and big ground sloths

1358
00:54:14,620 --> 00:54:11,509
beavers the size of a Volkswagen bug

1359
00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:14,630
really large animals the Bison that were

1360
00:54:17,890 --> 00:54:16,430
here were much bigger than the Bison

1361
00:54:19,630 --> 00:54:17,900
that we have now which actually came

1362
00:54:20,890 --> 00:54:19,640
over from Eurasia fairly recently

1363
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:20,900
they're like a small a diminutive

1364
00:54:24,549 --> 00:54:22,609
version of what we used to have the

1365
00:54:26,019 --> 00:54:24,559
original American bison anyway there was

1366
00:54:28,269 --> 00:54:26,029
lots of big animals here and so we

1367
00:54:31,569 --> 00:54:28,279
talked about how the role of the Native

1368
00:54:33,489 --> 00:54:31,579
Americans in managing the savanna

1369
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:33,499
landscape with fire to keep things

1370
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:34,910
opened and to maintain this balance

1371
00:54:39,729 --> 00:54:38,480
between the grassland and trees what's

1372
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:39,739
interesting is when you look back before

1373
00:54:43,749 --> 00:54:41,839
Native Americans got here you see the

1374
00:54:46,180 --> 00:54:43,759
same signature is the same savanna

1375
00:54:48,249 --> 00:54:46,190
landscape happening because we had all

1376
00:54:51,099 --> 00:54:48,259
these huge animals that were eating the

1377
00:54:53,470 --> 00:54:51,109
trees to maintain this open savanna

1378
00:54:55,059 --> 00:54:53,480
landscape so we've had savannas they've

1379
00:54:56,620 --> 00:54:55,069
been remarkably persistent for the last

1380
00:54:59,800 --> 00:54:56,630
30 million years considering they're

1381
00:55:02,110 --> 00:54:59,810
entirely unnatural quote-unquote now

1382
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:02,120
I think about that a lot and so like all

1383
00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:04,690
of the plants that we have around us

1384
00:55:10,030 --> 00:55:07,400
evolved in the context of extreme

1385
00:55:11,860 --> 00:55:10,040
grazing and browsing by large animals

1386
00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:11,870
throughout their evolutionary history

1387
00:55:17,470 --> 00:55:13,310
and so we got to remember that

1388
00:55:19,930 --> 00:55:17,480
and so we manage our animals in ways to

1389
00:55:22,270 --> 00:55:19,940
try to mimic the way that megafauna

1390
00:55:24,940 --> 00:55:22,280
would have grazed and so when a herd of

1391
00:55:26,020 --> 00:55:24,950
bison say would have come through there

1392
00:55:27,250 --> 00:55:26,030
would have been a whole bunch of them

1393
00:55:29,650 --> 00:55:27,260
and they would have plowed through the

1394
00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:29,660
area eating everything in sight and then

1395
00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:30,710
they would have left and then they

1396
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:33,170
wouldn't have come back what happens

1397
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:35,570
when you graze an area really hard and

1398
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:38,030
then allow it to recover is that that

1399
00:55:44,140 --> 00:55:41,570
recovery process is super beneficial for

1400
00:55:48,340 --> 00:55:44,150
building soil and for plant diversity so

1401
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:48,350
lots of plants really expect that POLST

1402
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:51,050
grazing event and so they really like it

1403
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:52,430
when they get it and then you get more

1404
00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:54,650
diverse pastures that have much better

1405
00:55:59,980 --> 00:55:58,010
soil we obviously don't have mastodons

1406
00:56:01,720 --> 00:55:59,990
and ground sloths anymore the biggest

1407
00:56:04,180 --> 00:56:01,730
animals I can get my hand on in a

1408
00:56:07,180 --> 00:56:04,190
reasonable way are cattle and sheep and

1409
00:56:10,090 --> 00:56:07,190
goats and pigs we do poultry as well so

1410
00:56:14,020 --> 00:56:10,100
chickens and turkeys and so each species

1411
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:14,030
has its own niche its own sets of plants

1412
00:56:18,010 --> 00:56:15,290
that it likes to eat its own habitat

1413
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:18,020
likes it spend its day in we try to

1414
00:56:24,430 --> 00:56:22,730
graze in ways that are pulsed so an area

1415
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:24,440
will grow up it'll be really lush we'll

1416
00:56:27,730 --> 00:56:25,970
hit it with the cows we'll hit it with

1417
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:27,740
the sheep will might bring in the pigs

1418
00:56:32,050 --> 00:56:29,930
and then we just let it go we let it

1419
00:56:34,540 --> 00:56:32,060
rest for a month or five weeks or six

1420
00:56:36,820 --> 00:56:34,550
weeks and then at that point it's lush

1421
00:56:38,290 --> 00:56:36,830
and green and tall and ready to be

1422
00:56:40,060 --> 00:56:38,300
grazed again and then we'll graze it

1423
00:56:42,090 --> 00:56:40,070
again and it's that rest period

1424
00:56:45,580 --> 00:56:42,100
following grazing that's essential to

1425
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:45,590
plant health and the ability to build

1426
00:56:50,980 --> 00:56:49,040
soil and so our big goal at our farm is

1427
00:56:51,460 --> 00:56:50,990
to build soil kind of as rapidly as we

1428
00:56:54,250 --> 00:56:51,470
can

1429
00:56:56,110 --> 00:56:54,260
it's these long rest periods followed by

1430
00:56:58,030 --> 00:56:56,120
pulsed grazing that allows us to build

1431
00:57:00,070 --> 00:56:58,040
soil and we're doing it we're collecting

1432
00:57:02,140 --> 00:57:00,080
data and you know I knew it was possible

1433
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:02,150
but until I started doing it I didn't

1434
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:03,770
even really believe how fast you can

1435
00:57:10,870 --> 00:57:07,910
grow soil very cool and so a lot of us

1436
00:57:13,150 --> 00:57:10,880
probably won't be able to completely

1437
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:13,160
dedicate ourselves to a multi a

1438
00:57:17,140 --> 00:57:15,440
farm but you know maybe there are some

1439
00:57:19,839 --> 00:57:17,150
people listening who are lucky to

1440
00:57:22,089 --> 00:57:19,849
actually have a small yard or something

1441
00:57:24,490 --> 00:57:22,099
like that do you have any advice or

1442
00:57:27,549 --> 00:57:24,500
resources for people on how to make the

1443
00:57:30,190 --> 00:57:27,559
most out of a little oh absolutely I

1444
00:57:32,740 --> 00:57:30,200
mean this obviously there's a lower

1445
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:32,750
limit to what you can do with cattle you

1446
00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:34,250
know there's lots of things available if

1447
00:57:38,020 --> 00:57:36,049
you've got a quarter acre a half acre an

1448
00:57:40,059 --> 00:57:38,030
acre I mean Ducks are really cool

1449
00:57:41,799 --> 00:57:40,069
grazing animals like they eat a lot of

1450
00:57:43,950 --> 00:57:41,809
grass and geese eat a lot of grass

1451
00:57:46,750 --> 00:57:43,960
there's really cool

1452
00:57:49,180 --> 00:57:46,760
integrated systems that you can do with

1453
00:57:51,630 --> 00:57:49,190
poultry or ducks especially they work

1454
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:51,640
really well with tree planting so

1455
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:54,410
growing an orchard or like a diverse

1456
00:58:00,190 --> 00:57:56,690
kind of food forest ducks and geese can

1457
00:58:02,260 --> 00:58:00,200
be integrated into that obviously lots

1458
00:58:03,730 --> 00:58:02,270
depends on what kind of land your on and

1459
00:58:06,279 --> 00:58:03,740
soil and yada yada and all that kind of

1460
00:58:07,569 --> 00:58:06,289
stuff but it's not scale dependent you

1461
00:58:10,210 --> 00:58:07,579
don't have to be big scale and a lot of

1462
00:58:13,089 --> 00:58:10,220
times we're on two hundred and twenty

1463
00:58:15,370 --> 00:58:13,099
acres which sounds like a lot to most

1464
00:58:17,710 --> 00:58:15,380
people but in Ag land that's actually

1465
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:17,720
like a tiny farm but to most people

1466
00:58:23,140 --> 00:58:20,770
that's beyond imaginably big and

1467
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:23,150
sometimes I mean I enjoy what I do but

1468
00:58:27,609 --> 00:58:25,609
I'm working on such an extensive land

1469
00:58:32,039 --> 00:58:27,619
base that I don't get to really like

1470
00:58:34,299 --> 00:58:32,049
zoom in and make small areas really

1471
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:34,309
what's really cool about this is that

1472
00:58:37,900 --> 00:58:35,930
there's really no limit to how much you

1473
00:58:39,730 --> 00:58:37,910
can produce on an acre like you can just

1474
00:58:41,319 --> 00:58:39,740
keep packing things in because nature

1475
00:58:43,420 --> 00:58:41,329
wants to be diverse and so if you can

1476
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:43,430
find the right species that have these

1477
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:44,930
positive interactions with each other

1478
00:58:49,539 --> 00:58:47,359
that have symbiosis then you can really

1479
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:49,549
constantly stack things on top of each

1480
00:58:52,329 --> 00:58:50,930
other you can build little ponds that

1481
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,339
can have fish and you can do all these

1482
00:58:55,329 --> 00:58:53,839
like little things you can make

1483
00:58:57,460 --> 00:58:55,339
microclimate so that even if you're in a

1484
00:59:00,490 --> 00:58:57,470
cold region if you bring in some rocks

1485
00:59:02,620 --> 00:59:00,500
and dig a pond the right way you can

1486
00:59:03,910 --> 00:59:02,630
then increase the heat that is captured

1487
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:03,920
and stored on your land which then

1488
00:59:09,250 --> 00:59:07,010
allows you to grow plants or trees that

1489
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:09,260
produce fruit that shouldn't be able to

1490
00:59:13,510 --> 00:59:11,690
grow there because it's too cold lots of

1491
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:13,520
things like that you can do on smaller

1492
00:59:17,019 --> 00:59:15,170
acreage where you can really be

1493
00:59:19,779 --> 00:59:17,029
intensively focused instead of

1494
00:59:22,059 --> 00:59:19,789
extensively focused that's cool that's

1495
00:59:24,460 --> 00:59:22,069
cool I mean that's definitely inspiring

1496
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,470
for people who maybe think that some of

1497
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:26,640
these things are outside of their mean

1498
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:29,910
and it's just been awesome man I'm

1499
00:59:33,140 --> 00:59:31,650
really glad we could do this I think

1500
00:59:34,910 --> 00:59:33,150
there's a lot of fun stuff to learn

1501
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:34,920
about within the realm of permaculture

1502
00:59:40,790 --> 00:59:38,130
and a lot of it does touch on many of

1503
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:40,800
the more wacky THC themes that a person

1504
00:59:45,710 --> 00:59:43,290
might not think about it first there's

1505
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:45,720
probably more connective tissue than

1506
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:47,730
they realize and correcting our

1507
00:59:52,340 --> 00:59:49,680
manipulated history is a big part of

1508
00:59:55,010 --> 00:59:52,350
that and also taking responsibility for

1509
00:59:56,420 --> 00:59:55,020
ourselves as well before we really wrap

1510
00:59:57,980 --> 00:59:56,430
this thing up I know your book isn't

1511
00:59:59,630 --> 00:59:57,990
quite done yet but what sort of things

1512
01:00:03,410 --> 00:59:59,640
should we mention your meat subscription

1513
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:03,420
business again your classes yeah so we

1514
01:00:07,730 --> 01:00:05,730
teach a class if anybody's interested in

1515
01:00:10,430 --> 01:00:07,740
learning more of this land management

1516
01:00:13,130 --> 01:00:10,440
ecology integrating back into nature we

1517
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:13,140
teach a class every summer we're in the

1518
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:14,640
process of building a house right now

1519
01:00:19,010 --> 01:00:16,290
once we get that done we're going to be

1520
01:00:22,340 --> 01:00:19,020
able to have a few more course offerings

1521
01:00:25,070 --> 01:00:22,350
we do like timber frame building we cut

1522
01:00:26,510 --> 01:00:25,080
down trees and mill them into big posts

1523
01:00:28,850 --> 01:00:26,520
and beams and then do the old-school

1524
01:00:31,730 --> 01:00:28,860
joinery type building which is pretty

1525
01:00:33,860 --> 01:00:31,740
cool and yeah follow along on our

1526
01:00:36,140 --> 01:00:33,870
website on social media on Instagram or

1527
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:36,150
Twitter we post a lot and try to be

1528
01:00:40,340 --> 01:00:38,370
educational about helping people figure

1529
01:00:41,870 --> 01:00:40,350
out what we're doing to restore the

1530
01:00:45,380 --> 01:00:41,880
ecosystems and things that they can do

1531
01:00:47,540 --> 01:00:45,390
as well right on all good stuff well

1532
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:47,550
thanks for being here man and thanks for

1533
01:00:51,950 --> 01:00:49,890
being bold enough to actually be the

1534
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:51,960
change you want to see in the world hey

1535
01:01:05,020 --> 01:01:02,650
so it goes people and so it goes man

1536
01:01:07,180 --> 01:01:05,030
Peter definitely knows what he's talking

1537
01:01:09,220 --> 01:01:07,190
about it's always nice to give the

1538
01:01:11,109 --> 01:01:09,230
platform to a plus member too because

1539
01:01:13,630 --> 01:01:11,119
they know the tone and the flow of the

1540
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:13,640
show we can know they're a kindred

1541
01:01:20,770 --> 01:01:17,440
spirit even if we stick to a semi

1542
01:01:22,930 --> 01:01:20,780
off-the-beaten-path path we did get to

1543
01:01:24,940 --> 01:01:22,940
talk a little bit about the esoteric and

1544
01:01:28,329 --> 01:01:24,950
magical side of these things although

1545
01:01:30,670 --> 01:01:28,339
that's not Peters forte poor say he is

1546
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:30,680
of the mutual opinion that it's in the

1547
01:01:35,620 --> 01:01:32,930
mix of this kind of perspective and

1548
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:35,630
needs to be injected back into our

1549
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:38,510
culture and way of life and I say cheers

1550
01:01:45,010 --> 01:01:41,839
to that and I think if I went back 20

1551
01:01:47,380 --> 01:01:45,020
years and told my 14 year old self that

1552
01:01:49,780 --> 01:01:47,390
my job was gonna be putting out a radio

1553
01:01:53,230 --> 01:01:49,790
interview on oak savannas I might've

1554
01:01:56,650 --> 01:01:53,240
just offed myself of what we grow and we

1555
01:01:59,770 --> 01:01:56,660
learn and we find interest in different

1556
01:02:03,370 --> 01:01:59,780
types of things and I'd like to think

1557
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:03,380
that we pushed our permaculture thread a

1558
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:07,010
little bit farther downfield and I think

1559
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:10,010
the wilderness myth in terms of mindsets

1560
01:02:13,780 --> 01:02:12,650
is just a great way to encapsulate it

1561
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:13,790
all

1562
01:02:19,090 --> 01:02:16,850
and yes it is a more practical show than

1563
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:19,100
talking about what the shadowy cabal's

1564
01:02:24,340 --> 01:02:21,770
are up to or a deconstruction of symbols

1565
01:02:27,070 --> 01:02:24,350
on the dollar but what are you gonna do

1566
01:02:30,130 --> 01:02:27,080
about that are you gonna redesign the

1567
01:02:32,820 --> 01:02:30,140
dollar is its power over our lives gonna

1568
01:02:35,350 --> 01:02:32,830
diminish because you've decoded it

1569
01:02:37,540 --> 01:02:35,360
obviously we want to keep abreast of the

1570
01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:37,550
esoteric toolbox and what the elite are

1571
01:02:42,540 --> 01:02:40,100
up to that stuff is definitely

1572
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:42,550
interesting but this stuff is

1573
01:02:48,700 --> 01:02:46,250
potentially life-changing take this clip

1574
01:02:52,420 --> 01:02:48,710
from the first season maybe even the

1575
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:52,430
first episode of Seinfeld it's one of my

1576
01:03:00,460 --> 01:02:56,570
favorite Seinfeld nuggets of wisdom what

1577
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:00,470
is the point of all this revenge oh the

1578
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:03,170
best revenge is living well there's no

1579
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:05,410
chance of that

1580
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:08,210
you know self-depreciation is always

1581
01:03:12,580 --> 01:03:10,730
funny to me but do you really want to be

1582
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:12,590
a George or do you want to be a Jerry

1583
01:03:17,260 --> 01:03:14,330
the one person who has their [\h__\h]

1584
01:03:19,630 --> 01:03:17,270
together almost always I'm a big

1585
01:03:22,750 --> 01:03:19,640
Seinfeld guy and I always think of

1586
01:03:24,730 --> 01:03:22,760
Jerry's casual attitude and the insane

1587
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:24,740
stress levels of the other characters

1588
01:03:30,850 --> 01:03:27,530
and it's because he's well fortified and

1589
01:03:33,580 --> 01:03:30,860
his friends are not and that's just a TV

1590
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:33,590
show but Peter made a real choice

1591
01:03:39,670 --> 01:03:36,290
to take a tougher path but he's

1592
01:03:42,850 --> 01:03:39,680
definitely more fortified than I am I'm

1593
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:42,860
doing quite well but my entire empire is

1594
01:03:48,610 --> 01:03:45,200
built on the shaky ground of the digital

1595
01:03:52,810 --> 01:03:48,620
world and the network of currency

1596
01:03:55,690 --> 01:03:52,820
exchange and I'm just one EMP blast away

1597
01:03:57,550 --> 01:03:55,700
from total ruin when I really think

1598
01:04:01,090 --> 01:03:57,560
about how many steps there are between

1599
01:04:05,660 --> 01:04:01,100
me and the firsthand quality meet that

1600
01:04:07,490 --> 01:04:05,670
Pierre produces I do get nervous

1601
01:04:10,759 --> 01:04:07,500
I think we should all consider our

1602
01:04:14,180 --> 01:04:10,769
supply chains and how to shorten them

1603
01:04:16,130 --> 01:04:14,190
and up the quality of them in the same

1604
01:04:19,819 --> 01:04:16,140
way a family plans for how to escape

1605
01:04:22,940 --> 01:04:19,829
their house in a fire scar was right you

1606
01:04:25,009 --> 01:04:22,950
gotta be prepared and one thing I did

1607
01:04:27,559 --> 01:04:25,019
realize when I did start to have some

1608
01:04:29,569 --> 01:04:27,569
unconventional successes oh the

1609
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:29,579
Rothschilds and Rockefellers and the

1610
01:04:33,789 --> 01:04:31,890
Archon attatched oligarchs they aren't

1611
01:04:36,589 --> 01:04:33,799
literally holding me down

1612
01:04:38,269 --> 01:04:36,599
yeah they built an uphill system it's

1613
01:04:40,190 --> 01:04:38,279
very difficult to climb they're dumbing

1614
01:04:41,569 --> 01:04:40,200
us down and they sold us a false stream

1615
01:04:44,329 --> 01:04:41,579
that it could be achieved by working

1616
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:44,339
within their companies but if I stopped

1617
01:04:46,910 --> 01:04:45,839
one of them on the street and said hey

1618
01:04:50,660 --> 01:04:46,920
[\h__\h] you buddy

1619
01:04:53,450 --> 01:04:50,670
I made it they'd probably just say how

1620
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:53,460
cute what a good boy you are and go

1621
01:04:59,089 --> 01:04:56,400
about their day they are steering

1622
01:05:02,029 --> 01:04:59,099
cultures and nations and they don't care

1623
01:05:04,279 --> 01:05:02,039
about outliers or how high you climb if

1624
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:04,289
they still have the masses and they're

1625
01:05:09,049 --> 01:05:06,930
always going to I wish it was different

1626
01:05:13,220 --> 01:05:09,059
but you can't control what other people

1627
01:05:15,259 --> 01:05:13,230
do so similarly I'm never gonna get to

1628
01:05:17,599 --> 01:05:15,269
give the puppet masters a piece of my

1629
01:05:19,940 --> 01:05:17,609
mind or a piece of anything else for

1630
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:19,950
definitely building structures that have

1631
01:05:27,529 --> 01:05:23,210
influenced my life in a negative way but

1632
01:05:30,109 --> 01:05:27,539
instead I could better insulate myself

1633
01:05:33,650 --> 01:05:30,119
better fortify myself from the tyranny

1634
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:33,660
of the system succeeding in it is one

1635
01:05:40,810 --> 01:05:38,210
thing not needing it is even better

1636
01:05:43,330 --> 01:05:40,820
so I just keep saying III because I

1637
01:05:46,690 --> 01:05:43,340
don't want this to be preachy towards

1638
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:46,700
you we can just use me as an example but

1639
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:49,010
yeah I overcame a part of it I got out

1640
01:05:56,230 --> 01:05:52,400
of the shitty corporate nine-to-five I

1641
01:05:58,570 --> 01:05:56,240
got rid of bosses I got rid of economic

1642
01:06:01,450 --> 01:05:58,580
and life fulfilment stress and got some

1643
01:06:05,020 --> 01:06:01,460
of my time back but I have done almost

1644
01:06:07,620 --> 01:06:05,030
nothing to live well by the right

1645
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:07,630
standards by the independent standards

1646
01:06:12,100 --> 01:06:10,160
you know the whole thing of just not

1647
01:06:15,100 --> 01:06:12,110
needing their system circumventing it

1648
01:06:16,740 --> 01:06:15,110
and so I'm willing to take a little risk

1649
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:16,750
that maybe content-wise

1650
01:06:23,170 --> 01:06:20,480
this isn't a super exciting episode when

1651
01:06:25,630 --> 01:06:23,180
you see the title but I really do care

1652
01:06:28,180 --> 01:06:25,640
about fighting this system and giving

1653
01:06:31,090 --> 01:06:28,190
the people who listen some tools and

1654
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:31,100
resources rather than just some

1655
01:06:35,110 --> 01:06:33,530
provocative conspiratorial speculation

1656
01:06:38,980 --> 01:06:35,120
about the capstone cronies of the big

1657
01:06:40,750 --> 01:06:38,990
pyramid instead maybe you should work

1658
01:06:44,590 --> 01:06:40,760
towards being the head of your own

1659
01:06:46,330 --> 01:06:44,600
pyramid it's how they would think so

1660
01:06:48,310 --> 01:06:46,340
that's my thoughts on it big thanks to

1661
01:06:50,590 --> 01:06:48,320
Peter for sharing his story and his

1662
01:06:53,530 --> 01:06:50,600
insights but I also have a bit of an

1663
01:06:55,450 --> 01:06:53,540
announcement to make on his behalf when

1664
01:06:57,760 --> 01:06:55,460
we recorded this his meat business was

1665
01:07:01,000 --> 01:06:57,770
only set up inside of a very limited

1666
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:01,010
local range but you know that I've

1667
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:03,200
talked to you guys about butcher box on

1668
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:06,530
other health food related episodes and

1669
01:07:10,390 --> 01:07:08,690
how I use them to get my meat I think

1670
01:07:14,020 --> 01:07:10,400
it's a lot better than most of my

1671
01:07:16,510 --> 01:07:14,030
options but a small farm that really

1672
01:07:19,420 --> 01:07:16,520
cares for these animals uses rotational

1673
01:07:21,370 --> 01:07:19,430
grazing and seems about as close to the

1674
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:21,380
purest and simplest way to do these

1675
01:07:27,460 --> 01:07:25,130
things is even better and I am happy to

1676
01:07:29,710 --> 01:07:27,470
say I happened to have been Peters

1677
01:07:32,530 --> 01:07:29,720
guinea pig it doesn't get much further

1678
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:32,540
for him than San Diego and he was kind

1679
01:07:38,140 --> 01:07:35,090
enough to send me a care package of meat

1680
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:38,150
and it was really awesome the packaging

1681
01:07:43,390 --> 01:07:40,970
was great the labeling was great those

1682
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:43,400
things are important to a degree but the

1683
01:07:49,210 --> 01:07:45,770
meat itself was excellent too we had

1684
01:07:51,330 --> 01:07:49,220
bacon sausages a nice big hunk of meat

1685
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:51,340
my wife made maybe it's a roast

1686
01:07:58,520 --> 01:07:54,730
I'm pad with detailed meet terms but we

1687
01:08:00,720 --> 01:07:58,530
got like 12 pounds of beef and pork

1688
01:08:03,780 --> 01:08:00,730
really excellent stuff

1689
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:03,790
the point is kudos to Peter for really

1690
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:05,530
making the best out of this opportunity

1691
01:08:11,850 --> 01:08:10,450
and rolling out a national plan for his

1692
01:08:13,650 --> 01:08:11,860
meat subscription business and I'm

1693
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:13,660
really happy to be able to bring you

1694
01:08:18,809 --> 01:08:16,330
that resource as well because I doubt

1695
01:08:22,050 --> 01:08:18,819
many of us have a great meat guy and

1696
01:08:25,020 --> 01:08:22,060
this would be a really solid option if

1697
01:08:27,270 --> 01:08:25,030
you don't as I mentioned Peter is aware

1698
01:08:28,710 --> 01:08:27,280
of butcher box we examine these things

1699
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:28,720
when we're gonna go into the market and

1700
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:32,170
as he said their box can vary a little

1701
01:08:36,570 --> 01:08:34,810
bit but it's around 8 to 10 pounds of

1702
01:08:39,870 --> 01:08:36,580
meat for a hundred and fifty dollars

1703
01:08:42,420 --> 01:08:39,880
where his is 12 pounds for a hundred and

1704
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:42,430
sixty dollars so there's definitely a

1705
01:08:48,480 --> 01:08:45,250
bit more bang for your buck with Peter

1706
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:48,490
and he's THC in her circle that's gotta

1707
01:08:53,460 --> 01:08:51,250
count for something - personally I

1708
01:08:56,130 --> 01:08:53,470
really like getting my meat by mail this

1709
01:08:58,559 --> 01:08:56,140
way it forces me to eat from home and I

1710
01:09:00,059 --> 01:08:58,569
just got to go get some side veggies and

1711
01:09:02,940 --> 01:09:00,069
to steam some broccoli and cook up a

1712
01:09:05,550 --> 01:09:02,950
couple steaks that's easy for even me to

1713
01:09:07,260 --> 01:09:05,560
do so maybe for you guys who don't cook

1714
01:09:11,940 --> 01:09:07,270
all that much treat your partner to a

1715
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:11,950
good meal with probably the most natural

1716
01:09:16,950 --> 01:09:15,130
meat you have available to you consider

1717
01:09:18,809 --> 01:09:16,960
giving it a shot Peter really has taken

1718
01:09:20,460 --> 01:09:18,819
a chance here we didn't even mention

1719
01:09:21,870 --> 01:09:20,470
that you could get it during the

1720
01:09:24,510 --> 01:09:21,880
interview because you really couldn't

1721
01:09:26,610 --> 01:09:24,520
then and I just see it as a win-win for

1722
01:09:29,579 --> 01:09:26,620
everyone if you were to pick up a box

1723
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:29,589
for you and yours just go to Mastodon

1724
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:33,250
Valley Farms calm and look for meat CSA

1725
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:35,410
underneath shop he's got a couple

1726
01:09:41,579 --> 01:09:38,050
different packages and big thanks to him

1727
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:41,589
for doing all that also keep in mind

1728
01:09:46,950 --> 01:09:43,810
that in higher side news the joint

1729
01:09:48,599 --> 01:09:46,960
session is on the 25th at 7 p.m. Pacific

1730
01:09:50,550 --> 01:09:48,609
this month come talk to me and other

1731
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:50,560
listeners and share your stories it's

1732
01:09:55,380 --> 01:09:53,530
definitely a nice hang also keep in mind

1733
01:09:57,330 --> 01:09:55,390
that the higher side overhaul is

1734
01:09:58,920 --> 01:09:57,340
underway the free and plus sites will be

1735
01:10:01,410 --> 01:09:58,930
coming together and the whole

1736
01:10:04,580 --> 01:10:01,420
infrastructure is getting a big modern

1737
01:10:06,050 --> 01:10:04,590
facelift in the next four to six weeks

1738
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:06,060
of course I would love for you to sign

1739
01:10:11,390 --> 01:10:08,250
up for the higher side chats plus and

1740
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:11,400
enjoy the second hour of all my shows I

1741
01:10:16,550 --> 01:10:13,409
think it's worth it for what I try to

1742
01:10:20,780 --> 01:10:16,560
bring you every episode and this one the

1743
01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:20,790
second hour gets into using nature as a

1744
01:10:25,939 --> 01:10:23,369
technological template how indigenous

1745
01:10:27,020 --> 01:10:25,949
attitudes about spirits filter through

1746
01:10:29,689 --> 01:10:27,030
their everyday lives

1747
01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:29,699
what independent farmers deal with when

1748
01:10:33,859 --> 01:10:31,409
budding up against the system

1749
01:10:36,350 --> 01:10:33,869
the off-the-grid elements of Peters farm

1750
01:10:38,660 --> 01:10:36,360
and lifestyle how to make a farm

1751
01:10:41,450 --> 01:10:38,670
profitable and tweaking our idea of

1752
01:10:43,729 --> 01:10:41,460
wealth just how different the meat from

1753
01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:43,739
ethnically treated animals is from

1754
01:10:49,310 --> 01:10:46,710
factory farmed meat and what the future

1755
01:10:51,919 --> 01:10:49,320
looks like for America's resources and

1756
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:51,929
the extent of the damage we've done as

1757
01:10:57,050 --> 01:10:54,480
well as the methane myth that was great

1758
01:10:59,780 --> 01:10:57,060
too for that vegan argument that cows

1759
01:11:03,410 --> 01:10:59,790
are putting out more greenhouse gases

1760
01:11:06,050 --> 01:11:03,420
than the system can support he gives a

1761
01:11:08,359 --> 01:11:06,060
great counter-argument to that so please

1762
01:11:10,790 --> 01:11:08,369
support the show you love and get all of

1763
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:10,800
it because you love it and I think our

1764
01:11:14,570 --> 01:11:12,570
guests say so many great things that I

1765
01:11:17,810 --> 01:11:14,580
know I'd want to hear it all without any

1766
01:11:20,089 --> 01:11:17,820
breaks or ads so that's that and I'll

1767
01:11:22,570 --> 01:11:20,099
see you next time big thanks again to

1768
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:22,580
Peter Allen of Master Don Valley farms

1769
01:11:27,709 --> 01:11:25,290
your move corporate food producing

1770
01:11:30,290 --> 01:11:27,719
parasites glyphosate crops ochres and

1771
01:11:32,919 --> 01:11:30,300
evil entities involved in the limitation

1772
01:11:37,480 --> 01:11:32,929
and quality reduction of our food supply

1773
01:11:47,710 --> 01:11:43,070
they built a little Empire out of some

1774
01:11:53,150 --> 01:11:47,720
crazy garbage called the blood on the

1775
01:11:57,440 --> 01:11:53,160
exploited working class but they've

1776
01:12:02,410 --> 01:11:57,450
overcome their shyness now we're calling

1777
01:12:10,010 --> 01:12:02,420
them your highness and the world screams

1778
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:10,020
save me THC they destroyed the bonds of

1779
01:12:19,220 --> 01:12:14,400
friendship and respect between the only

1780
01:12:21,250 --> 01:12:19,230
people left who'd even look them in the

1781
01:12:25,610 --> 01:12:21,260
eye

1782
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:25,620
now they'll laugh and make a fortune of

1783
01:12:34,640 --> 01:12:30,330
the same ones that they tortured and a

1784
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:34,650
world screams save me THC

1785
01:13:03,840 --> 01:12:52,770
Jesus so far away now we are the only

1786
01:13:10,290 --> 01:13:03,850
one who can tell me if it's true and our

1787
01:13:14,940 --> 01:13:10,300
chance to they built a little Empire out

1788
01:13:20,370 --> 01:13:14,950
of some crazy garbage called the blood

1789
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:20,380
of the exploited working class

1790
01:13:28,300 --> 01:13:25,489
but they've overcome their shyness now

1791
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:28,310
we're calling them your highness